night coverage starting at 8:00 p.m. purity was 0 election results and house, senate and governor's races. and victor and concession speeches. it can see this on c-span, c- span radio and >you can send usa tweet @cspanwj. c-span.org as well. at 7:45 we will have andrew and economics and business reporter will talk about the economy in swing states and how it affects campaign 2012. we will take a look at the role religion is playing in the campaign 2012 and how the latest voted blocks might impact the

election. turn your clocks back one hour tonight. that is it for "washington journal." a new edition comes at 7:00 tomorrow morning. >> through the election day, what our coverage of the presidential candidates and key senate and house and governor races. after an overview of the 2012 senate races, we will show you the maine senate race debate. >> a senior analyst for the rothenberg

her campaign has completely retooled. she reinvents herself. she has had some good television ads. murphy is making up the advantage where it needs to be. she is open a case like, but not a huge leak that democrats would like in connecticut. -- lee that democrats would like in connecticut -- lead that democrats would like in connecticut. north dakota is an interesting one. it is one that if democrats have not gotten the right candidate, we would not be talking about it being as competitive.

the democrat gets rave reviews on the trail. burke found himself under water for a bruising campaign for the house. he had to remake his image say why. he got an early -- early -- he had to remake his image state why. -- statewide. heidi's biggest problem is that romney will probably win the state by 20 points. he will not win by double digits. it will be a close race. we killed -- give rick burke the edge. >> and tewst -- tester?

>> he has problems in a state like montana can be above 50. -- getting about 50. on election night, i would be watching to see how much the third candidate -- third-party candidate would be getting. i had one strategist tell me that the last two basis to be called in 2006 were montana and double that the last two races to be called in 2006 were montana and virginia -- last two states to be called in 2006 were montana and virginia.

>> what is going to happen to claire mccaskill? >> democrats were handed the best gift of the cycle with tidd akin's comments. she has had rape survivors talk about this. they are moving at. if republicans were probably looking at this race, it would have -- would have been a huge gamble. scott brown distanced himself from todd akin. ultimately, too much damage has been done. the castle will not when buying the best when they by double digits, but she -- the pasco will not win by double digits, but she will win -- mccasdkill

will not wednesday by double digits, but she will win. heller deserves credit for running what has been a good campaign. turnout is the bane question and how much present show -- turnout is the big question. we moved this race into our tilt republican category. it has been a while since we have seen surveys outside of the margin. >> and finally, arizona. >> democrats have made republicans work for it.

a former surgeon general. an oppressive police and military background. flake suffered from a bruising primary. he had to spend a lot of this money. we are seeing the state go back to a republican lean. rounding will win comfortably. we sought -- we saw mitt romney cut an ad for jeff flake. turnout could be key. there is a large lbs population there. -- lds population there.

they are breeding -- breathing a little bit easier. >> there is always a supply store -- surprise or two on election night. what do you look for? >> pennsylvania is a state that we did not look at as competitive. bob casey was caught sleeping. he did not take this race seriously. i think obama still has a narrow edge. i think casey will pull this out. democrats have had to go in and help him. what we are looking for, if scott brown does not pull it out in massachusetts early on, and tim kaine slightly has an edge

in virginia, it becomes difficult for republicans. republicans would be happy for a win at 3. democrats have good candidates. even if they fall short in places like arizona and north dakota, they have made these republicans spend money. >> thank you very much. >> now from maine, a debate among candidates for the senate seat. this hourlong debate is brought to us by wmtw tv in portland, maine. >> in the next hour, you will hear from six candidates who want to represent the maine in

the senate. i want to give you a quick word about our format tonight. the questions come from our editorial board and viewers and e-mails. we want to hear from you. >> we already have good questions coming in. this is your chance to ask the senate candidates in you think you want -- candidates anything you want. >> the candidates will have one minute to answer the questions.

rebuttal will be at the moderator's discretion. we will be going in on alphabetical order and starting with opening statements from each candidate. we will begin with the independent candidate. this debate along with the other debates, you will not get much detail. i urge you all to go to ever 1's website. -- everyone's website. i hope you will go to the other outidates' websites to find what they have to say on the issues. the reason i am running for the united states senate is that i spent 25 years working for the federal government in a lot of agencies.

those agencies comprise 40% of our discretionary budget. the misapplication of resources going on in our federal government should be stopped. they should be listening to the constituents. thank you very much. >> thank you. i am running for the united states senate because i want to make a difference. i believe america needs a new generation of leadership. what is wrong with america is extreme politics and extreme wealth. my opponent to represent the status quo. charlie summer's represents extreme politics and angus king represents extreme wealth. what i am offering the state

of maine is someone who is not beholden to outside interests. we need a new generation of leadership. i hope to have your support. >> my name is andrew ian dodge. i am in this race because i believe the issues of liberty, freedom, and individual rights are being trampled on left and right, whether it is a resting -- arresting a farmer for selling raw milk. i have a touch of ethnicity about me and i am the youngest in the race. i hope we have an excellent discussion. there are a lot of issues are really matter.

it has just been reported that we have the distinction of being the second worst place to earn a living in the country. we need new blood. i am that new blood. >> governor angus king? >> we have some serious issues in the country and we will be touching on them tonight. the problem is we cannot reach those issues if the congress does not work. that is why olympia snowe left. she did not leave because she was tired with congress or wanted to spend more time with her family. she left because the place did not function. she was utterly frustrated. we have to do something different to respond to that challenge. that why i am -- i am running for the united states senate. this is not just about process. this is about solving the

problems that the nation faces. there was a bill before the senate that would have benefits to veterans across the country. it was filibustered because they did not want the president to have a victory before the election. that is a terrible way to make decision. the concern should be for the veterans and not for politics. >> i appreciate the chance to be here this evening. it took america more than two centuries to accumulate 8 trillion dollars in debt. -- 8 dollars trillion in debt. . i want to go to washington to lead and to reduce regulation and keep taxes low so businesses can expand and people can get jobs and feed their families and pay their mortgage and send their kids to school.

the choice we have to make on november 6 is clear. you can choose someone like the hurricane and who took a $300 million surplus and left us with a $1 billion deficit, or you can choose me. i would like to go to washington to lead the fight to reduce spending and regulations and do things to grow this economy. i would appreciate your vote. >> i am not a politician. this is a little bit uncomfortable. i am a businessman and chairman of my local council. the negativity that has consumed this campaign bothers me. cynthia, i am tired of your criticism of old, wealthy white man. he went beyond the pale when you accuse angus king of the allied air. charlie, i am tired of your

commercials ruining all of my favorite shows on abc. you do not think angus is responsible for a lot of terrible things. as an voter and citizen of maine, i will ask you to stop your attacks for the next hour. if you do not do any attacks for the next hour, i pledge to give two checks for $5,000 a piece to the charity of your choice. this will prove that you will put maine first. >> now that you know a little bit about each of our candidates tonight, we will move right to our questions. there are a lot of issues. you are free to submit a question of your own. just one in 10 americans approve of the job congress is doing. this is according to the latest

gallup poll that came out. the reason most of you are here is because senator olympia snowe decided to retire because she was tired of the lack of bipartisanship in washington. here is how she describes the problem. >> there are not red or blue issues. there are american issues. we need to look at critical questions rather than draw a stalemate and fight each other. if you do not get your way, you abandon any effort to resolve the issue. >> it is that my way or the highway issue -- attitude that has disillusioned many voters. they want to know what you will do about it. it was the number 1 question that we got. >> what will you do to show the voters that you will work together and be a bipartisan?

>> what will you do to break the gridlock? that is one of the main issues facing us right now. >> each of you has uttered phrases that you are not a politician, an outsider, not a politician. a lot of maine citizens are not buying it. secretary, we will start with you. >> i look at this opportunity to go to washington to serve my country. i looked at this as another opportunity to serve my country. i believe the issues that we say, particularly getting spending under control, are serious issues that will dog this country if we do not do something about it. it is time for partisanship to fall by the wayside. we have to be willing to move this country forward. we have to be willing to stand up and agree with people when they have a good idea. times that we disagree, we can

do so without being disagreeable. mainers have sent people to the senate and they all come from partisan backgrounds. yet they felt it was critically important to move the process forward. that is the approach i will take and that is the approach i feel will be successful. >> steve woods? >> if you are a republican who only cares about that, you should holiday for charlie summers. he will vote 100% of the time along party lines. cynthia dill will vote 100% along party lines. charlie and cynthia will not change. grover and harry will not allow

it. we must listen to our better angels. we must all take for the candidates who are rebels who serve our common good and not fall for the seductive voices of fear and walked into the voting booth with only the letter d or r to guide us. >> i am a true independent. i am not part of either party. i plan to get things done. i am not result -- beholden to harry reid or whomever lead to the senate. i can act on my own behalf and get together with people who agree with me on certain issues. i will not be threatened by not being invited to the right parties. i do not care about that. all i care about is the people

of maine and getting things done for the people of maine. i will be your representative, your senator kerry i am not beholden to anyone. >> senator dill. >> i want to thank senator snow e for her service to this country and this state. i am proud to be a democrat. i support the president and the democratic platform and what it stands for. democrats brought this country since the suit -- social security and the fair pay act. i am not driven by ideology. nothing in my record suggests i am and ideologue or a partisan hack. i sponsored legislation that led to the three women -- three ring binder project. worked with senator collins'

office. i am in this race because i want to make a difference. i will put the interests of the people of maine first. just because you belong to a team and you do not care about people is outrageous. as you can see from to night's debate, the independent does not mean anything other than you do not have a group. >> mr. dalton. >> what america has done with the guilty parties is make them too big to fail. -- with the parties is to make them too big to fail. the two party system is broken and we are putting money ahead of values when it comes to

electoral our efficient -- officials. our two parties are controlled by major lobbyist groups. they do not want reform in health care or immigration. the idea that senators no - - senator snow -- senator snowe is walking away because of partisanship. we should hold them accountable. >> i have to wrap you up right there. >> mr. king? >> everywhere i have gone in the maine people say, how come they cannot talk to each other. not only is it aggravating -- there was a study done by the federal reserve bank of france -- of san francisco.

it said the bickering in congress is costing us jobs. the estimated unemployment would be 2% lower if it were not for this. as an independent governor, i had to work with both sides. every tuesday morning we had breakfast with republicans and democratic leaders in the voting house in an effort to bring them together to start talking about the issues. sometimes i worked closely with the democrats and sometimes i worked closely with the republicans. the whole thing was an exercise in getting the parties to work together successfully on behalf of the people in maine. i have no formula for washington, but i think we have to try. >> the economy is improving a little bit, but not fast enough. last month, unemployment figures came in at 7.6%. it is from one year ago.

>> this question comes from our website. it seems as though all candidates how to their small business experience as the ability to create jobs. how many jobs have you created in the last year? how many co-workers do you currently employ? do you cover their health care? >> in the last year, i have been working to start a nonprofit. i also teach at a community college. i have not created jobs except for myself. i have provided training for students and i am working on policies that will help this government create an environment for small business. i come from a long line of small business. i owned a small thises and ran a small loss form -- long form for many years. business acumen does not translate into good government. what we need in maine and in

america is to invest in education, infrastructure, to reform our taxes, to reduce our spending, and to get this economy on track so the government can provide an environment for small businesses to grow and prosper and to help families get through this economy. the disparity in income is the biggest problem. what might two major opponents offer is more of the same. >> we have some business owners. does anyone want to answer? >> i am not a small business owner. i never said i was. i am self-employed. i am a free-lance writer. if you are a political pundits like i am, if you run for senate, you are no longer a political pundit. not only have i not created a job, but i cost myself a job by running for office. on that question, i do not have a good record. >> i think it is sad the

recently we have looked at government services as being separate from competency. the u.s. senate is a job. it is a complex job. legal issues, economic issues, financial issues. i own six businesses. everyone here in maine and across the country talks about jobs in the abstract. i will do this. secretary summer's talks about working at a hotel three decades ago -- secretary summers talks about working at a hotel three decades ago. >> can you answer the question specifically? how many people you employ and do you employ -- provide healthcare? >> approximately 60 people and we do provide health care. my daughter is 21 and benefits from the affordable care act. she is on my health care plan. i was at my office at 6:00 a.m.

when the other candidates were plotting political strategy. business experience is relevant as opposed to people outside business to talk about it in the past -- the abstract. >> i have a business register here in maine. we sell nationally and we manufacture in china. we have 10 representatives who sell nationally and we contracts to businesses in the state. the problem comes back to how you develop more small business in maine. our governor came up with a great idea, which was to cut our corporate income tax. he went to china and met with the chinese manufacturing and business organizations. we send $17 million worth of products in china. we have a corporate income tax that is applied to our exports and makes us uncompetitive

globally. >> in the last two years, i served as secretary of state. i have not created private- sector jobs. others who are running their businesses -- when others were running their businesses, i was serving in afghanistan. i ran small businesses, madden -- managing hotels in bangor. >> can you talk about the numbers? >> we did not offer health insurance, but i did employ three people. >> my major economic development activity this year is bringing $5 million in negative advertising money into the state. i think i have created a lot of jobs in the tv industry. in the campaign, we have 10-12 people. even though it is a short campaign experience, we do offer health care working in the campaign. i have also served on the board

of hancock lumber, lee auto. those companies offer health insurance. >> in maine, the cost of -- the median income is $46,933. what is the primary interest facing the middle-class in maine and how the dress -- address if? we are looking for -- what is the primary problem facing the middle class in maine and how do you address it? >> people get out of college and they cannot find jobs in maine so they leave. there is the whole missing tier of maine life that is not here

to solve -- start businesses. they leave and do it elsewhere. >> how would you fix it? >> the fundamental problem in maine is that we need to reduce taxes and regulation and do everything we can to attract business. we are clearly not doing that or we would not the rate is so badly in earning a living. >> i would wonder how many jobs olympia snowe created. i do not think there is a direct correlation to serve the public and our track record in terms of numbers in businesses. to address the question, 2/3 of the united states senate are millionaires. the bush tax cuts are a large cause of the debt and deficits. . on wall street, people succumbing to greet is what led -- greed is what led to the

recession. they were captured by corporate special interests and big money. there is a correlation between the growing disparity between the haves and the have-nots. i am a middle-class working money. i am tried to make a difference and i will make a difference for maine families. >> does anyone have a particular answer to a? >> the beginning and end of that answer -- does anyone have a particular answer to it? >> the beginning and end of that answer is education. it is nobody's fault. is the way the state is laid out. people competed in commerce in the local proximity.

we are now in a global marketplace. i was in california last week. we need to compete across the country. it involves technology, investment in technology. i believe it starts in grades k- 12. talk about jobs between -- for people in their 20s and 30s. if we do not try to be more advanced, we will not be competitive in the global market. >> the middle class here is facing the same problem the middle-class is facing everywhere in the country. our government has not been able to work together because of being controlled by major lobby groups that are not putting in place specific things like comprehensive tax return -- tax reform that makes sense that accumulates revenue and is equitably history. we need to make sure we have

comprehensive tax reform that makes sense and address the waste and mismanagement and misallocation of resources we see throughout government as is evidenced in benghazi. we need to address that. we can address that by having more independents there to let the people know there is someone else available to take their place. >> let's move onto the next question right now. go ahead. really quick. >> i campaign all over the state. i meet with people every day. the best thing we can do is get government off of business' back. if they have a tax system that is fair and they can plan five or 10 years down the road in terms of buying equipment and hiring people, the best thing

we can do is keep taxes low and cut spending so the economy can grow so people can have jobs to support their families. >> we have had gas prices falling. they $57 since a gallon. -- $3.57 a gallon. what is the solution? >> the man is going to grow in places like china and india. the sooner we can have substitute fuels -- in the immediate future that is natural gas. we have to be careful how it is extracted, and it can be extracted safely. it can be an enormous advantage to us. i was on a bus in portland that was powered by compressed natural gas. we can use it to power electric

vehicles. there should be a parallel track developing renewables to be there when the gas it runs out or demand increases to the point where the price goes up. to power your vehicle on natural gas is the equivalent of $2 a gallon. it will be the same with home heating. getting off of oil should be the number one priority. >> senator dill? >> thank you. gas prices are a challenge to anyone in maine trying to take their kids to school or get groceries or go to work. i support the fuel efficiency standards that will lead to automobiles to rely on less fuel and will cost families less money. i am the only candidate in the race who opposes the keystone pipeline. i do not believe transporting tar sands is the way to get off

of oil. i am opposed to fracking. i recognize domestic production is something we have to rely on. the president's policies have led to the largest domestic production in decades. we have solar power that has to be explored. it is efficiency is the key. we have to become more efficient when it comes to our use of energy and fuel. that will be less reliance on gas and oil, less hydrocarbons into the atmosphere and less money spent. >> i want to go to charlie and we will wrap it up. >> somebody who works with their hands for a living, they work in the woods or in the water. they want to get to work in an inexpensive way. what you are talking about oil

or gas or coal, we have to have and all the above strategy. if we start dealing now, they said it would take 10 years before the oil because gasoline in our fuel system. that would have been done and we would have it here today if that was done 10 years ago. we have a responsibility. every day we import oil from the middle east is a day we are paying people we are fighting against. we should be drilling for oil in this country and looking at every alternative we have. not only is it an economic issue, it is a national security issue. as someone who served in the middle east, i understand full well what that means. >> to me this is not an issue about gas prices. it is not an issue about policy or politics or ideology. it is an issue about the survival of civilization. we have finite energy resources.

at some point come we are running out. different scientists predict 40 years, 80 years. it will not be about what is the price but the the best price at the pump. it will involve our society's survival -- it will not be about what is the price at the pump. it will involve society's survival. the more we talk about politicizing this in the same way we do with climate change, we move further away from the idea it is signed, it is mapped and it is urgent. >> let's talk about health care and move on to another question. the affordable care act provides access to affordable health care for millions of americans. critics say it is too expensive and will take money away from medicare. would you like or not like about the affordable care at?

>> access to affordable care is what i like. the two parties, the democrats and republicans, which i hope are replaced by more independents, they do not come to completely form when it comes to these major issues. major lobby groups like big pharmaceutical, the u.s. chamber of commerce, ama and even the aarp should get into the room and be forced to make -- they go into a room and are forced to make requirements that are not in the benefit of the people. we do not have a public option, which would have allowed people to not have a mandate and to have a public insurance provider. it was because of these different pharmaceutical and lobbyist groups.

everyone is taking money from them. we need to stop that. >> governor cain -- king? do you want to answer that question? >> we should keep the affordable care act. it is helping a lot of people. i have a young men in the office who is 23 years old and covered by his parents' insurance. he was born with a tumor in his brain, not cancerous. because of a pre-existing condition, the problem would not be able to get health care for the rest of his life. it is an accord step forward. i do not think it is the whole answer. it does not cut medicare benefits. it takes money from some providers and insurance companies under medicare and reallocate that money under the medicare system. the aarp has confirmed that.

they would not support it if it took money away from seniors. the next issue is cost. the affordable care at has some pilot programs in maine that will substantially bring down costs. >> charlie, i expect you to disagree. >> i do. for one important reason. the affordable health care at is the most misnames thing i ever heard. this country is $16 trillion dollain debt. this is another big government solution that will cut 70 $16 billion out of medicare. -- $716 billion out of medicare. it will put a whole other government bureaucracy in place. these projected savings -- we have seen government projections

before. in 1964 when they passed medicare and medicaid, they said it would cost $9 billion. it has cost $94 billion. we need to allow people to go across state lines to purchase health insurance. the second part of that, a less expensive option, they should be allowed to deduct from their federal income taxes. >> we spoke about aarp, that is our next question talking to social security. >> [indiscernible] >> we are trying to get to all of the questions. >> i want to thank the democrats for the affordable can act.

you can build up with -- the affordable care at. -- act. women are no longer considered to be a preexisting condition. we should move to a single payer. the affordable care act is good and you can thank the democrats for it. >> the democrats want to nationalize your health care. that is their ultimate goal. obamacare is just the first step. i am against obamacare. any american who was to decide what their health care is should be against it. >> i own a health and wellness company. i know firsthand that for every dollar that is spent in care there is $5 in treatment. when we talk about politicizing this, we lose sight of something. in america, we are not like

other health care systems. we are not like britain or canada. we have a moral imperative -- imperative to take care of people. this is not something we need legislative authority for. i support affordable care. it is the best first step we have had in decades. we take care of people when they are ill. we do not turn people away in hospitals. we do not deny people coverage. ct does affordable care a is to make sure people have health care if they cannot pay. >> social security is more than a retirement benefit. it is a safety net. the a arpino sat 1/third -- the aarp notes that was last three of the social security beneficiaries rely on social security for their entire income.

>> i have a 94 year old grandmother who lives on social security. so many people in maine and america rely on it. you can think the democrats for social security. i would raise the income tax. currently it is as $110,000. $250,000 weit two can gradually increase the contributions of people make into the system. employees and employers can contribute. it is not an entitlement program. if we all contribute a little bit more, the program can be sound for future generations. it is critically important for maine seniors and four women. they contribute less because of making less in wages. they take years of the work force to raise children.

they live longer and have more complicated diseases at the end of their lives. social security is something i pledge to protect and strengthen. >> i want to be clear that i was not support any legislation that will cut social security for people currently in the system. 15 years ago when i lost my first wife, my two young children got social security benefits. we were able to exist and i was able to raise my children because of social security. those who paid into it and are into the system need to be protected. younger people, as they come into the system, may have to retire at a later date. more wealthy people like governor kean -- king may not be able to get as much -- as many benefits. >> it is a point to understand how important it is in maine.

if social security was not present, 8% of seniors depend on it. i cannot think of social security as an entitlement. it is something people have paid into and earned. social security is not in serious actuarial trouble. we can raise the cap on with the tax applies. four years from now, increase the retirement age. the fixes to social security are not that radical. medicare is in much more serious financial condition. often those two are mixed up. social security is in relatively good shape. any effort to privatize it would be a huge mistake. >> the reason social security is

in bad shape is because of our two party system did not act on this issue 20 or 30 years ago when they should have. again, i blame the two party system. anybody who does not vote for independence, did not complain about the two party system. this is not a big problem to fix. the congressional budget office says that it is 0.6% of our gdp. if you say, i have are in it and when it comes times for me to collect it, i want it. whatever you call it, i want my money when i am 65. to put it on the backs of young people right now does not make any sense. you can adjusted by 2% and that will solve the shortfall. for people 55 and older, by the

time i am 65, that solves the problem. >> we have a question for the candidates from one of our viewers. >> do the candidate's support a policy that if policy budget's-- candidates -- candidates support a policy that if the budget is not passed, they do not get paid? >> i do support is. -- it. what is really wrong is the decay of democracy. we are electing people are making bad decisions for us. whether it is how we are handling that -- debt or our that -- debt to china, the

answer does not exist at these two tables. there are some fine men and women here who can be engines to some of the solutions. people the need to demand across the state, local, county, that is where the answers are. it is ridiculous we have people in government that are not making decisions but are collecting a paycheck. >> show of hands, no budget, no pay, who is 48? >> they are on millionaires. who cares? the idea is that the two parties the two parties are supposed to be doing their job. this is by having independence. is there someone else that can

hold them accountable for not doing their job in making sure that we are not rewarding incompetence and bad behavior? that is what you are doing. this has been put in place. they are insuring that they get all the attention. they are in a whole campaign. >> i certainly would support no budget no pay. the group that is supporting that is the same group that is providing millions of dollars to the king campaign. >> they are not a super pac. >> no. labels is not a super pacs. it was reported tonight. this idea that it is a party system is ridiculous. we can support no budget no pay, but the problem is not -- there

are all millionaires. we need people in the senate who are aware of what it takes to feed a family who have been in the grocery store, if you are a middle-class family and in touch with the challenges of ordinary people and that there will be consequences. today's congress is out of touch. we need a new generation of leadership. >> medicare provides prescription drug coverage for millions of america. we all pay into medicare through out our working lives. what is your plan for current and future seniors? >> we need to make sure medicare is protected for those people who paid into it. the first thing we have to do is repeal obamacare. 70 $69ut $716 out of -- million of the medicare appeared i met with health care providers that would agree it would cost

money. there are suppose it projected savings. this is not going to happen. we have to be in the here and now and protect medicare and make sure our seniors have that ability to benefit from that program. the first thing we need to do is repeal the president's health- care plan. >> it seems to be the way it goes. the first in medicare is know about your spirited that is the rise in plan that was in the budget -- is in no vouchers. that is in the ryan plan that was in the budget. i think this is a terrible idea. i am against it and would oppose it as firmly as i could. medicare is the same with an anthem or any other payment mechanism, hospital and medical costs are going up faster than inflation. what we have to do is figure out the different payment mechanism which we are working

on under the affordable care act. there is one in portland. there's one eastern maine. there's also one in the dustup. we're starting to pay for health and prevention instead of procedures. i think that is the secret we have to go to. it is happening right now in maine. we're already seeing results. they are already seeing results from that way of handling health care to bring the cost down. that is the way we will save medicare. >> i want to mention that there is $10,000 worth of checks that are there from the attack pledge that did not come through. medicare is critically important. >> you can keep your money, thanks. >> your welcome. >> we have a one-sided the equation. we have a madison we have institutions.

-- we have institutions. the issue i believe is in the 42% in the middle. it is the transactional costs. we can do better. we should do better. we should not do it on the backs of our most important m ainers. we should make it more efficient. we shall not pull aside senior people who are the most vulnerable americans. >> the way to cut costs hugely is by cutting the cost of bringing drugs to market. the fda and drug administration make it so expensive that great products that can help lot of people are not being brought to market because small companies cannot afford to get them approved. that is the way it has been done. you take big farm out to the equation. >> we have less than 12 minutes.

>> i want to remind people that you can think democrats for medicare. i would agree with what angus said. we can go a long way to stabilizing medicare by redoing medicare tollowing pay for prescription drugs. i suggest that we have medicare for all. it is an excellent program. we do need to make some changes. it is important purity can think you're democratic party for that. >> -- it is important. you can think your democratic party for that. >> we have to find a way to have tax reform that pays for these things we want the government to pay for. everyone has to be enough to pay for it. that will have a sales tax. >> we are talking about super pacs, outside through spending millions of dollars to influence people independently.

your campaigns are not even paying for a lot of the commercials we are seeing. is this acceptable? if no, how would you change it? >> the best way to ensure you get the representatives you you what that is not being controlled by special interests and all the pressures that come from that and the big lobby groups is to make sure that you are voting for a candidates that does not want to except that money. i do not accept any money from anywheranyone. anyone can go to my website. i dare say that nobody else here at the table has put as much effort into their website which everyone has access to. if you want to respond to me and tell me decide what is the best thing for this country, that is the best way to do it.

i like to know it from the people not having special interest pacs pay my way. it is up to the people who decide to they will vote for. >> this super pac business is awful. i have been the beneficiary but i think we ought to and it appeared the first thing out there is a bill in congress called the disclosed act. at least we will know where the money is coming from one of the problems now is we have no idea where this money is coming from. that is a specific thing the legislature can do. the next up may be a constitutional amendment. the supreme court has ruled that money is speech incorporations are people. it that is what the supreme court has said, the way to do that is to change the supreme court or constitution. i think this super pac money is ridiculous. he is a flyer i got in the mail that is promoting a cynthia

dill that says i'm a big supporter of george w. bush. he would be surprised to see that since i campaigned for john kerry. it is a couple of republican operatives in atlanta who are sending misleading fliers to democrats in maine, trying to get into vote for cynthia. it is ridiculous. only residents of the place you are running should contribute. if you're running for senate in maine, only people in maine could contribute. >> democracy have representation. that led to the birth of our country. it was not about corporations. it is not about karl rove. it was about representation. one of our most special

freedoms. terrible decisions, a super pacs bad. people talk about big government being bad. my experience is the political industrial complex that is just as insidious both here in maine and nationally. i do think we need to get back to the principle that when people want to run for office they should be able to have a straight dialogue with the electorate. they should be able to say who's a lot for me. people should not come in from atlanta saying do not vote for angus king or cynthia. that should not be rooted in our democracy. the >> what we're talking about is free speech. do i like some of the bat i see? i am sure other people do not like them. we get ourselves a wrapped around the axle. while we should be focused on to do things to cut spending in

this country, do things to get our regulations under control and grow our economy. the average person in the state of maine are wondering how they went to pay their mortgage in taxes and send their kids to the university of maine. that is the discussion we should be discussing. not somebody from georgia our washington. we stand on our record. everyone else has been examined. you have to stand up and deal with it. this is a serious job we are going after. there are going to be very difficult decisions to be made. to wring our hands and cried about who is saying what about one the playground to means this. >> 3 demeans this. >> nobody is crying. demeans this. >> nobody is crying. it is free speech. >> we should be talking about people's ability to feed their

families, not whether steve is offended. >> lesson a lot to taxes. taxes.s move onto some americans do not believe the tax burden is fairly distributed. what do you think is a fair percentage of your income to pay in taxes. we have five minutes left. we want to get everybody to move. let's everybody should pay 15% flat tax. that is the way to keep us competitive. >> we would get to everybody to this. >> the tax system is dysfunctional. we should not have this system. sales tax or other taxes should be the way to go. none of these other countries have. and makes us uncompetitive globally. please look at my website.

>> our system needs a complete reformation. i'm the only candidates that supports president obama's proposal to not extend tax cuts for families making up of two lenders $50,000 -- to wonder to $50,000. -- $250, 000. i do believe that we need to lower corporate income-tax rates. everybody should paying their fair share. it is time the corporations pay more. >> i want to get everybody in. >> we should be doing things to make sure our taxes are as low as they possibly can be. by doing that we increase the number of people who are paying taxes. they can get jobs. if we're not selling our products, we do not go out and raise the prices.

we lower the price and try to work on volume. we cannot tax our way out of this situation. angus king made a big deal of raising taxes. that is the worst thing we can do. even president obama advocated to extend the bush tax cuts. we cannot afford to do this. >> nobody wants to raise taxes. the situation that we have with the debt is such that we have to look at revenue as well as cut. it is impossible to do it otherwise. i am engaged with a project called simpson-bowles which is a bipartisan effort to find a bipartisan solution to the deficit. what they propose is cutting tax rates, eliminating loopholes and exemptions, and actually

reducing great but taking 8% of the revenues generated and putting it against the debt. i think that is prudent and responsible. nobody wants to raise taxes. we need to talk seriously about this. some framework i think are going to be necessary to solve this problem. what we will end up is a fair tax system and lower rates across the board and more fairly distributed among star people. >> it is common sense. it is a map. it is arithmetic. there has to be revenue. there have to be cut. i appreciate him talking on this issue. for someone hit signed the grover norquist pledge, he is not about to talk about revenue even if he believes it in his heart and we showed him a spreadsheet that shows it is just math.

>> if i could just finish here. we can talk about that. there has to be corporate tax reform. this should be looked at any minute. part of it has to do a sacrifice. what very few people are talking about is america is in a crisis. there are people suffering right now. i do support the more taxes. not because i want to or i could not use the money, we need to stop pandering to people and say revenue cannot be done. >> thank you very much. for continuing coverage of all of these campaigns as we head into election day a few days away, join us on that night for special election coverage both on air and on line. it out like to thank all of our

candidates. thank you for bearing with me for all of the questions. aarp, university of southern maine, are co-sponsors. get out and vote. for all of you at home, thank you for watching as well. thank you. have a wonderful night. have a great weekend. the all deserve it. enjoy. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> we have to create an environment that our small businesses can try. when we look at the uni uniqueness, we need comprehensive immigration reform. as i meet with the agricultural folks and ranchers, we have a workforce problem. we cannot get workers to go back and forth. it takes hours to come back and forth.

the street and impediments to congress. we need to provide a work force that can move back and forth. this becomes an economic issue. >> some of these issues have to do with the issue that was raised here with regard to be near the the border, a seasonal work and being especially susceptible to national trends when it comes to unemployment. we need to desperately do some things here like a commuter plan that will make it easier for labor to come across in the daytime and go back at night. that is not allowed easily in our system. one thing we have to avoid is the sequestration that is looming at the end of the year that will hurt our military readiness. yuma, it wouldke huma

be devastating. >> watch this online anytime and throughout the day saturday on c-span starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern. correct now john testier and >> one of the closest increases in the country. they read this as a tossup. this debate is kirstie of the montana television network. this is about -- is courtesy of the montana television network. this is about one hour. >> you are watching the 2012 montana u.s. senate debate. thank you for being part of our broadcast tonight. i am your moderator. on behalf of all of us here at the montana television network, i want welcome you to an exciting night of politics. 2012 is a watershed year in politics for montanans.

every race from the president on down to the bottom of the ballot is up for a vote. we do have a historic opportunity to shape the future of our state and nation, and we are looking forward to a lively discussion on the issues between the jon tester and his challenger, denny rehberg. a little bit of housekeeping, first off. our debate format was agreed to by both campaigns. we have asked our audience not to applaud, boo, or heckle monday and silent support of their candidate. each candidate will have the option to question. it is time to introduce you to the panel. joining me from our sister station, donna.

thanks for being here. good to see you tonight. ladies and gentlemen in the audience, thank you for being here, and you at home, you can feel the tension tonight. by a coin toss we had earlier this afternoon, we flipped a coin, and congressmen, you got the right to answer the first question, and that comes from me. both of you have accused the other of putting politics over jobs. congressman, you have come under criticism for killing the jobs and recreation act.

you have been criticized for voting with environmental concerns and support the epa rules, which are being blamed for mothballing down the road. my question, when does politics tromped job since -- trump jobs? >> i would like to thank my wife and daughter in the audience. who can better put people back to work. he has two cats and has been taking one, which is the obama pass. 90% of the time he has supported job killing policies of the obama administration. if we want people back to work we cannot have obamacare. its stifles the economy, and it does not reform health care. it is going to take $10 billion

from the economy on an annual basis it does not work, so we need to talk about the past. one is more government control. >> senator, your response. >> first, i want to thank the networks and my family, my wife of 35 years, my daughter, and my other daughter, and 60% of the grand kids are here. it is good to have james here. jobs are critically important, and i think if you take a look at what is wrong with washington, d.c., there is a long list of people.

the jobs bill as a prime example that you brought up. it is interesting the gentleman i am running with is hyper partisan. he mentioned rosa, and she has gotten off hold of me and said he has not been much of the health on the subcommittee, and quite frankly, what needs to be done is people need to work together as americans. >> the question is when does politics trump jobs? is it when clean air or clean water is at stake or perhaps politics?

>> the answer is jobs, and we need to create an environment in washington, d.c., where we are working together. we are trying to create an environment of working together. it is a political year. of course she is going to endorse the senator that best represents her local view, which is connected. >> senator, your turn. >> she did not endorse me. she just said what the record was. politics should never trump jobs. the problem was not wanting to invest in this country. clean water and clean air, it is a $3 billion industry, and we can have both, but you need regulations, and 50 days before an election they announced three years ago they are going to kill the plant.

>> he brought us the company from an action the epa took, and epa was told by the chamber of commerce that if you took that action if you voted not to suspend the rules, they would not have to prevent it. that is the problem. you see bureaucrats are dictating policy in montana. we can do just fine. >> the congressman has talked about 95% and other things that are patently false. they said they could deal with

these rules. the problem they have is with ash and hayes. they can meet those standards. they have chosen to make investments in latin america, not in montana. we have been here before, and that is not the way it should be. a company that does not pay $45 million in taxes to the state of montana. they are manipulating not only their workers but the congressman on this decision. >> time to go to our panel. our first question goes to senator tester. >> thank you. an overwhelming concern is the negative ads, so of the negative ads toward you by your opponents, which one bothers you most?

>> we have unlimited amounts of corporate secret money in campaigns, and i might add the decision has endorse my opponent and give him $10,000. i do not want an endorsement because i believe in transparency of government. he tells folks, now number one, they have been driving this over and over again 95% with obama. it is not true. i come home every weekend to get the ideas of montana and take it back to washington, d.c., and not just talk about it but actually get things done. >> he is trying to mislead montana's. it is 95% of the time against the best wishes of the stimulus and the epa, and he has a chance to side with small businesses, and he chose to side with wall street. what bothers me most is the ones who do not address the

issues of obamacare, of sales stimulus, of how we turn our economy around. we need to talk about the issues people are talking about in montana, and that is why i continue to get back to the issues of supporting this president 95% of the time, and i believe i'd better represent the value and principles of montana when i say to give small businesses back. >> i believe you have a follow up. >> you have any idea how much money has been spent by your campaign, even with the ads that say you have not approved this message?

>> i do not. >> our budget was around $10 million. that is the money i have raised to put my ads on tv. i would assume the money comes from ads or corporations. if you want i can show you -- my budget was $8 million, but i cannot begin to show you what kind of spending. frankly, this is not about campaign spending. this is about government spending. it is out of control. we have to bring it under control. i believe in transparency and putting our contributions of the internet in 24 hours, but as far as my personal budget, it is $8 million. >> some folks told me they are sick to death of all the negative ads.

they do not want to listen any more. do you feel responsible for those negative ads, and does it detract from your message? >> i tell folks if they do not like the negative ads, they do not have to campaign. we ran positive ads. they have been all negative. the bottom line is i want to talk about the issues, too. >> what about the other ads you do not approve.

they have not been all positives. what about the others? >> i did not even know who they are or when they come down. i cannot meet with those folks. unlike the congressmen, i cannot meet with those guys, and i do not know who they are. i do not know where the money comes from. i think they ought to have transparency. we are back here again. we can talk about government spending, but the truth is our democracy is cedras from all the money coming into these campaigns. >> the majority of the united states depends on this race. ultimately, people have an opportunity and the right to be involved, but it is not about campaign spending. it is about government spending. that is the difference between the campaigns, his path, which is government spending, and mine, which is to control spending. >> when the congressman got elected we had a budget surplus

in this country, and it did not take him long to put a prescription drug and a tax plan on the credit card, so if you want to talk about government spending, let's go. >> it is time to accept responsibility for the last four years of spending. this is your economy. you had total control in the house of representatives and the presidency. you spend one trillion dollars against our debt for a failed stimulus. you pass health care reform that is going to costs me 1.7 trillion dollars. you have added six trillion dollars in the last four years and eight trillion dollars to the debt. accept responsibility for your actions over the last 46 years. >> stimulus was the emergency funding -- policemen, teachers, firefighters, infrastructure. what did the congressman do?

how did he want his money spent? he advocated for as if it -- for a $64 million project right here to give broadband to the richest of the rich. that makes sense, because he has done nothing but look out for himself and his rich buddies. >> i am going to put you on hold for a second. we are going to hear from one of our viewers. let's take a listen. >> i would like to know if you could pass one piece of legislation to better montana, what would you put inside it? >> the first question goes to you. >> i would like to thank the viewer for joining our democracy and asking a question. the biggest issue that faces our country is the debt and deficit. we are going to have to ask some tough questions, and we cannot be playing politics.

we have to have are robust plan. i would say around 4 trillion dollars closer to five trillion dollars, and there is a lot of work being done on this. i hope during a lame-duck we get a great start on it, because it is a huge issue for jobs. it is a huge issue for this country. ireland, greece, these are canaries in a mine shaft, and we need to move forward with a good policy that will impact a whole country and do it in a responsible way to move our economy forward, and that is the number one issue we need to work on to move our country forward. >> i thank you for the question. what i introduced was a balanced budget requirement for the federal government, but the first piece of legislation i will sponsor was to repeal

obamacare. we need to put that money back into medicare. we cannot afford that. i would be proud to carry the legislation as i was proud to carry the legislation to fund obamacare, i would be proud to support legislation to repeal obamacare. >> speaking about president obama, and i will have to ask the question differently. where has the president failed montana, and how would you fix it? >> i think he failed montana in health care. he added to a system that has already failed. i think the stimulus has already failed. our solution was not to pump money into a onetime expenditure. we want to try to expand payroll taxes. that would put money in the hands of small businesses. i would suggest the new

regulations coming out are destroying jobs in billings, montana, costing over $10 million every year from our economy. but i do not understand why you would have an energy tax that is hurting our oil, coal, and gas industries on montana that we rely upon. >> the you feel president obama has implemented policies that hurt montana? >> i feel the race to the top is not a good policy for education for one candidate. we have been working with the administration to try to get them more aware of the issues that are out there. it is critically important every time america gets left off. other countries have a carbon

tax. we do not, and that is the problem. there has been debate. it has been thrown against the wall. let's hope it sticks. let's talk about what we have done, less than in decades. we are becoming more energy dependent. natural gas is cheaper than cool. that is good for folks. energy is sheet. that is good for the consumers. the obama administration needs more from rural america. it is an educational process, and let's put it like that. >> we do not have an energy policy.

we have an environmental policy. we need to work on alternatives like wind and solar and biomass. we need to talk about conservation, and we need to reach our next generation of energy production. the president does not have an energy policy. >> it is time to take our first break. you are watching the 2012 montana debate. we will be back right after this. that's welcome back to campaign 2012, the senate debates on the montana television network. >> we are back for more questions with senator jon tester and congressman denny rehberg. >> the affordable care act often referred to as obamacare, i know you are not a fan, but if it is so bad, what would you do if you were offered to change it? >> some of the things we knew,

they were serious about controlling the costs of health care. health insurance premiums have increased by $2,500. talk to your doctor right here. talk to your hospital, and they will tell you defensive medicine occurs right here and in every community across america. if they make a mistake, they know they are going to be taken to court, but it is the doctors doing two procedures instead of one or checking into a hospital instead of outpatient service. we can talk about health care plans, the opportunity to buy health insurance.

we can talk about the opportunity of allowing bigger pools to be created, expanding programs so we have more family practice. these are ideas we are willing and ready to prepare. we are not allowed to. >> senator tester, there are polls that show that montana and steve not like affordable care act. how can you sell it? >> that is the bottom line were you have a pre-existing condition. i am glad the congressman talk about selling across the state lines, about increasing general practitioners and family practice in the health-care bill. there is a lot of stuff in the health-care bill. i always get accused of not reading it. the bottom line is the health-

care bill extends health care for eight years. the mistake that was made was that we did not implement it quick enough to be able to get the competition of the kinds of things in the health-care bill, and if you take a look at what congress has done when inside the affordable care at, i do fine women's health, trying to make a voucher system who out of the medicare system, these things are not good for seniors. they are not good for women, and they are not good for the population. we will talk about health care for some time to go. i think it is a step in the right direction.

>> the problem is obamacare cost jobs. it does not solve the problem and steal $716 billion from medicare. it is not a good plan. people did not read it. it was passed with lack of information, and senator tester did not have one single town hall meeting on obamacare. >> first, that is incorrect. second, it reduces the debt over the long haul. third, it holds congress accountable. >> what would you say to those with pre-existing conditions who are dependent on this? >> if you want to subsidize, we could talk about that using the existing system that is already in place. you did not have to destroy our economy and put the government between a doctor and their patients, so if you are upset about the insurance companies, you are replacing an uncaring big insurance company with an

even bigger federal government. allow them the opportunity to work on medicare reform, but do not destroy medicare to set up an entirely new entitlement called obamacare. it does not make sense. >> they wanted government health care. that is not what this is. this is about companies offering insurance and having competition from an increasing pool, selling across state lines, and giving consumers a choice, and that competition results in prices being driven down, and that is the bottom line, and if there was a mistake made, it is that we did not hold insurance companies accountable.

you should implement it quicker. >> if you want to address small business, ask small business. they have endorsed me, but this is not good for small business. it is a tax on small business. it is going to cost $800,000. is not the right thing to do. there are ways we could reform health care, but you cannot do it without addressing reform and addressing the uninsured. >> my wife and i have a small business, and i can tell you a group is taken to the cleaners by insurance, so if you want to talk about business, we are a business, and we cannot afford to be sick. there was a time when we could not afford insurance, and we went without it. that is a serious situation, because if you get sick, what you do then? $2,100 a year to that tune for folks who have insurance, so we need to get more people injured.

it has got to be the bottom line. >> my wife and i are a small business as well. when we were married i took over the ranch. we were a family, too. we went to the local bank and it allowed us an opportunity to have a bigger pool. you have the ability to afford health care. that is how jan and i paid for our health care as we began our wrenching family. >> we have come to the part of our debate where we will let the candidates as each other a question, and the first one goes to rohberg. >> i appreciate you voted with

obama 95% of the time. >> no, i have not. >> we talked about why you voted for obamacare and all the good it would do. it is bad for montana. it is bad for the patients became as you please the government between the patient and the doctor. it is bad for students because you took out of medicare. it is bad for small businesses. it is bad for health insurance costs, because it was going to lower insurance by 2500 and rose it by 2500, so if you look at all the bad things it is doing for montana, how can you justify it? >> going by what you said, that would be not a good thing to do. the bottom line is you should have read the bill. this is not government health

care. and need is a great thing to say. it is a great talking point to talk to the media about, but this is not a government health care. this is about trying to get more insurance in the marketplace and hold insurance companies accountable so people can afford to get sick. that is the bottom line, and that is why the health care bill is there. the system we had not work. i can give you examples of small businesses, ranches that not only lost one generation of earning ability because someone

in their family got sick, but multiple generations that have been handed down. now if you cannot afford to get sick, if puts the economy in a bad place. >> i want to ask. the meeting you had here with president obama, it was passed in the senate. my question is, do you think that is how montana's believe in transparency and how they would want you to handle a bill this important? >> since it is on-line, you can handle this looking back. i have had meetings on the health-care bill. the bottom line is you talk about this being done in the dead of night. this is a 10-month process. he did his best to try to get everyone on board for this bill, and for political reasons, he decided he could play politics with this instead of doing what was right. >> senator tester, it is your opportunity to ask congressman rehberg a question. >> let's let the facts. in 2009, he supported a bill to

make medicare into a voucher system so when the seniors are out there, and you know very well the chance of getting sick is much higher. those seniors and needed help. they could not depend on medicare, because it would have been the voucher system, and they would have to beg and plead with the insurance companies. can you tell me what your thought process was when you voted to take medicare into a voucher system? >> i have never voted to harmon medicare and social security. i have done everything i can, and i will always vote to preserve and protect medicare. it talks about social security. i do not do anything but supporting

i do not do anything but support preserving social security and medicare. i put this back in to save them. this is one of the reasons why i did not support their ryan budget. my promise to seniors is i will always vote. i will never vote to privatize security or medicare. i believe they are sound and i believe that they should be there for anyone who is on it now. >> in 2009, the record is clear. you voted to make medicare into a voucher system. you have been on this platform before and talk about what you'll never do. a few years that, you talked about never taking a pay raise. at last count, it was five. can we believe this time?

>> you will do anything to keep your job. i have never voted for a pay raise but you have. you voted for a pay raise just several months ago and the senate and i have never voted for a pay raise and i don't support the privatization of social security. i would do everything i possibly can. you are the one that cut seven had a $16 billion from medicare that affects doctors, hospitals and indirectly, it will affect seniors. >> only in washington, d.c. when you have waste, fraud, and improper insurance payments to you call that a bad thing. not one penny a benefits for cut the health care bill. not one penny. take a look at this statement

about not voting for pay raises or making medicare into a voucher system. >> this affects doctors and hospitals. you voted for sequestration. when the president tells us that we're not going to lose a doctor of our choice, the problem is that the doctor will not be able to see us because they will not be able to afford to see us because we're not reimbursing them for their cost. when he said it does not affect beneficiaries, do not fall for that line. it will hurt seniors, hospitals. >> let's talk about the sequestration. you want us to default on our

debt. that would have driven us into a depression. you tell us how we create jobs when we are in a depression. course i tell you how to do with that issue. he voted to set up a super committee. we should not ever give up our responsibility to 12 individuals to go behind closed doors and fix all of the problems with america. how was solved the problem? i have introduced the entitlements that don't even become law until 2014. the expansion of the subsidy. if we are having problems, why in the world would you vote for it bill that creates two new

entitlements that costs 1.4 trillion dollars over the next 10 years. and expense we cannot pay for. this would solve the sequestration issue. >> the fact is that it extends medicare for 8 years. what have you done that has ever extended medicare? on the other side of the coin, you have tried to make it into a voucher system. you have run from your record. if i was a senior, i would be very concerned with you in terms of things like medicare and changing social security. >> once again distorting my record. there are people that have taken money out of medicare and that is president obama and your vote. that is a fact. it will affect medicare. it is the only way we can turn this thing around is to get

serious about the discussion about medicare and social security. this is a new tax and a mandate that frankly montana ends don't like to be told what to do. you cannot admit that he made a mistake and voted for obamacare. both of you did not a vote for it. >> there was no cuts. i have carried bills. for the congressman to talk about perez's, that is incorrect. >> he is trying to mislead this. that is a problem with washington. they put in bills before we got

the congress. we did not have a chance to vote on. i sponsored legislation to allow the opportunity for us to vote on whether we would take a pay raise or have a pay raise or not. i have consistently opposed that pay raise. i have voted to freeze my salary. you are the only one standing on this and in fact voted for a pay raise. >> agriculture is a big deal and the state. both of you have backgrounds in farms and ranches. i have two charming sons that i would like to give my property to. >> exempt small businesses. this is what i have advocated for since i have been there. i have bills currently to do

that. when my parents passed, they pass the farm on to us. we got it with no taxes. that is the bottom line. >> this is not just for farmers and ranchers but for all businesses. it should not exist in the first place. my great grandmother passed away. we had to sell a third of our ranch just to pay the down payment on the state tax. my sister and i had to go to the bank to follow the rest of the money. every single dollar, we had to borrow. essentially we were able to

move the house up. no one should pay a death tax. i am the one that believes that there should be no death tax for everyone. you have been paying an income tax along the way and you will pay a capital gains tax if you try to enrich yourself by selling that property. >> could you do it for more than farmers and ranchers? >> 8 $10 exemption per couple would take care of this. on the other side of the coin, it would not help a company that is closing down and of shoring jobs. it would not help those that think that latin america is a better investment then the great state of montana. this would help to family businesses. >> will this expire? >> yes, you have to go back

$1,000, 55%. you have to provide certainty to our businesses. i will do everything i can to keep this from happening again. we should permanently eliminate the death tax. we should put in permanently the tax relief. there is no certainty what the taxes will be. >> we have to go to break right now. back to wrap things up for the final 20 minutes right after this. >> senator john tester and congressman reberg on stage.

>> i think this goes to congressman reberg first. does massive fiscal cliff of large sputs and tax increaseses could hit us could potentially cost the average person 3500. >> i will do everything i can to see that it doesn't happen. it will unemploy 2 million people. the effects that it will have on our own defense will be unimaginable. even the secretary of defense has said this is not a good idea. that's why i did not vote for it in the first place. it is serious and we need to be serious about it. that's why if we repeal obama care if january we will have eliminated that problem. i'm not suggesting that we shouldn't look at each and every department. within the department of transportation the beginning of the recession there was one individual at the department of transportation making over $170,000. 1 months later there were 1690 employees that were making almost $170,000.

we have a spending problem in this country and that's why i continue to talk about the fact that we don't need to raise taxes. we have a spending problem. let's control our spending first. and i can give you all kinds of places where we have waste fraud and abuse. there were 28 programs eliminated, 24 were mine. >> the fiscal cliff is a huge problem and it cannot be allowed to go over that fiscal cliff. and the bottom line is that we have to work together to get this fixed. there's enough skin in the game for everybody democrats republicans independents. libertarians, the works. that we need to get together. just as the default in august of 2011 would have put the country into a tail spin, this will too. we have got the opportunity to work together to put politics aside to work as americans, to do the best for this country. and i think that's exactly what's going to happen. what i think is going to happen is this and there's already folks working on a long term

debt and deficit reduction bipartisan in nature. let's take a look at what those folks have to offer in the lame duck and then let's get it fixed by the first quarter of 2013. it is critically important. >> when you both talk about cuts, where do you think the first cuts would come from and is anything sacred on that? >> again, i talk about the elimination of obama care. that saves $1.7 trillion immediately. in my budget what i'm trying to do and up against a brick wall in the senate. there are 46 different job training programs in eight federal agencies. that must be eliminated. let's talk about foreign aid. with pakistan we're sending $4 billion a year and yet they've closed off our supply line where we supply our troops in afghanistan. that costs us an additional $100 million a month. we need to get serious with our neighbors and start talking tough with them sand saying

we're not going to buy our friends or nation build. let's get realistic about our foreign aid spending. >> i think there's really is an advantage to what's going on with this sequestration. we can go back and look at programs that have been set up some for 100 years that we haven't evaluated. the cold war era got over with 25 years ago. we still have cold war era bases out there that we can close save money make our military stronger and probably make our allies a heck of a lot happier. there's a lot of things that we can go back and look at whether it's earmarks in thed to closing loopholes for the rich, for those who offshore jobs. those things need to be done. and then we need to look at programs that aren't providing any service any more and they're still on the books and people are still getting advantage. but what we don't want to do is we don't want to do things like the congressman did in his subcommittee and that is cut women's health, cut women's ability to go out and get preventative care that they

need. because quite frankly that is going to end up costs us more money. cutting head start. we don't want to do that. that's really shooting ourselves in the foot. so we've got to be careful, be smart, be responsible. it can be done and i think it will be done. sequestration is the worst way to govern. it's across the board. and the problem is that there are agencies that are run very efficiently and agencies run inefficiently. those are the ones we need to go after. and capture everything. but we don't need across the board cut. the difficulty is they already cut 500 billion from defense and they want to cut an additional 500 billion from defense. you can't do that. that will put us at risk. if you want to put america at risk carry through with sequestration. there's nothing good about it. >> i agree. we've got to get together and get this solved because a lot of this stuff is total

nonstarters. democrats have to work with republicans and republicans have to work with democrats to make this happen. >> did you have a question? the next question. >> another big topic this political season is lobbying. so i have a question for both candidates. i believe we start with senator tester here. six years ago you defeated conrad burns who was tied to abramoff. yet there are ads that claim you have received the most money fromists. how do you explain that? >> i come home every weekend for good reasons so i can put montanaance first back in washington, d.c. and that's the bottom line. that's one of the reasons the first bill i helped cosponsor was the biggiest lobbyist reform since water gate because it's critically important. the state of montana has a great transparent government we need to take that to washington. on the other side of the coin, we've got congressman reberg

who had 25 million in his own report that should have been transparent. somebody who made a mistake should have been a lobbyist and depends upon lobbyists obdecisions he makes. i depend upon montens. >> congressman. >> i ask the question? >> the question for you you've been here on tape in an ad that said if you had been a lobbyist you would have been smart to begin with the lobbying. >> i was talking to a young group of lobbyists that it is an honorable profession. you are represented by a lobbyist in washington, d.c. you are. and everybody in this room has somebody representing them in washington, d.c. there's nothing wrong with gathering information and listening to them. he made a misstatement. i never said they make my decisions. i said i've listened to people that are representative of montana in my office in

washington and then ultimately i try to make the right decision. the difference between me and senator tester who demonized lobbyists to get elected in 2006 is i accept their information. he accepts their cash. $1.8 million from k street and wall street the number one senator. and that's not easy to do when you think of some of the senators that are in washington, d.c. to be the number one recipient in his campaign this cycle from lobbyists and k street wall street. >> lethsdz talk about lobbyist cash. what about kevin ring? he got in your campaign and you get him a job on a highway. would you like to respond to that? >> i worked on the highway project like anybody elled would like both senators were happy to do. what you do is try to find projects to work on. so it's misleading to suggest that there's anything wrong with listening to lobbyists and then ultimately making the right decision. again there's a lobbyist for

the cancer society, alzheimer's', muscular dystrophy. there's a lobbyist literally for aarp, senior citizens center. everybody in this room is representd by somebody in washington. the difference is you take their advice or you take their cash. >> take a look at the congressman's donation report and see the favors that he cuts for the folks that donate to his campaign and the connection is absolutely clear. you will not see that. i make decisions based on what montanaens tell mefment and i just don't talk about it by the way. we go back and get policy passed. we get things done for veterans and for sportsmen and for women. and numerous other people farmers and ranchers. and the bottom line is that you don't do that by saying you depend upon lobbyists to make decisions. >> once again he's trying to mislead the people of montana. i never said they make my decisions. i said i take their information, their advice and counsel. i hear from the always mers and

cancer society. some of the best people i work with are in head start. the difference is i take their information and try and make the right decision on behalf of montana. he takes their cash, visa mastercard for having carried legislation on behalf of those industries. i support small business. he supports wall street. >> and that's why you proposed to defund head start? >> we're going to leave it at that. we have comb to the time for our candidates to present their closing statement. again, when we're having fun, time flies by. senator tester you have the first closing statement. >> and thank you, jay, and i want to thank all the reporters for their questions and the cbs network. i very much appreciate it. look, this is a big election. and it's a big election for a number of reasons. but from my perspective as a montanaen one of the most important reasons is because we're back in 1912.

we've come back to a time when appropriations can give unlimited amounts of money, secret money and influence the political structure of this country. and that's scary for a democracy. we've seen incredible sums of money come into this state this cycle since the citizens united decision money that has no transparency whatsoever. money that is being used to define me as something that i'm not because quite frankly they cannot beat the farmer from big sandy with the record that i have for veterans for sportsmen for women for education for tax policy for making sure that montana's rural perspective is front and center in washington, d.c. look, over the last six years i've had an incredible opportunity to work with some of the most incredible people in the world and they all live right in this state. when i first got appointed to the veterans affairs committee,

at public meetings i had a vietnam veteran come up and say you're not going to treat the men and women coming out of iraq and afghanistan like you did us. i work hard to live up to the promises. i've had sportsmen come up and say you have the best habitat in the world and if we can't get access it doesn't do us any good. so we've worked not only to increase the number of acres but also make sure that there's access to it. i've had women come up to me and say you know what? i can't afford health care. i'm a single mom or i'm single. and that income does not allow me to get health care. and that's why it's so very important to community health clinics and title 10 programs are there for our women. i would appreciate your vote in the election in november 6 and i want to thank you. god bless montana and god bless america. >> congressman reberg. >> thank you, jay. and i took want to thank the people of montana for giving me the opportunity to have

represented them in the quites congress over the course of the last 12 years. it's been the greatest experience and i hope i've represented people the way they deserve to be represented. tonight you heard two differing records, two differing visions. one vision and one record is heading down the path of more government control. it's barack obama and john tester. and if you're satisfied of that record of having the government placing themselves between the patient and the doctor or the patient and their hospital, then there's that path. having the government think they can buy their way into prosperity, having the government believe they can take a small of your small business through a death tax having the government believe they can intrude in our lives. we don't have an energy policy we have an environmental policy costing us jobs and millions of dollars and it's happening all over the nation. the other path is prosperity, freedom, getting government aul off our backs.

it's of liberating main street. you can support wall street, you can support main street. we have tax uncertainty. when i go around and ask the question are you better off than your parents or grand parents? ask the followup question. do you think your children are going to be better off than you? no hands go up because everybody is worried about the direction this country is taking. if we're going to renew faith in ourselves and america, if we're going to revitalize small business and turn this economy around it's not a government solution. it's a people solution. it's a freedom and celebrity solution. so if you're satisfied with the direction you're taking if you think obama care is a good thing if you think the failed stimulus is a good thing, if you think it's all right for washington, d.c. to close a plant in billings or higher utility bills and hurting our economy then you've got a path. i support -- support me for the united states senate if you believe that we can do better if we can renew, revitalize and

rejuvenate our economy. i've got the plan and i'm asking for your vote. good knight to you all and god bless. >> that concludes our senate debate tonight. we would like to thank our two candidates for taking the time. it is now down to the final -- >> senator john tester is facing a tough reelection challenge from congressman reberg. they rate this race as a toss-up. overall 33 states across the country will hold u.s. senate elections on tuesday, 53 senators caucus with the democrats. the republicans need to pick up four seats to gain control of the senate. for the next 15 minutes your chance to weigh in on

congressional races you might be watching and the presidential race and a larger context a chance for you to comment and talk to us about what you're seeing this campaign season. here's how you can do so this morning. you can tweet us. and facebook. speak of the senate taking a look at the presidential race and the impact upon the senate. there's a story this morning. here's the headline.

just one of the stories dealing with these days leading up. don't forget c-span is the place to watch next tuesday. we will bring you start to finish. if you want to find out more information i invite you to go

to our website. not only can you see the latest information as far as the races are concerned but you can also access video particularly maybe if you're interested in congressional races you can look at debates. if you're looking to see what the candidates said you can access those as well. campaign 2012 for these minutes leading up to the arizona senate debate. let's start with new york. john first and foremost tell us how you're faring these days after hurricane sandy. >> slowly but surely picking up and moving along moving forward. it's really bad. and the past couple days the rescue efforts and volunteers and the red cross they've all been amazing. it started slow but they've all been around now and i think

everybody is real appreciative and just the amount of work that they're doing on behalf of the community. i really wanted to talk about new york 11 which is a district that has a crook rating of r plus four. what is interesting is i think polls have shone that the incumbent congressman who is a freshman has like between a 7 to 11 point lead. and what's interesting is this storm has really disrupted a lot of the republican areas of this particular congressional district. and it's going to be interesting to see how many of these people who reside in this area, whether or not they're able to come out and vote due to the fact that obviously voting is probably not the number one thing on their mind. a lot of the democratic -- i hate to put it this way but a lot of the democratic areas particularly the north shore staten island and the brooklyn handled the storm and weathered it well and pretty fine where i live on the north shore. so i think this particular race

you could see some decent impact of the storm affecting those that come out to vote. and you heard it here first on election day this could be a district that could flip. >> there's a story of the cbs local station that you can find on line here's what it says. to pennsylvania. republican line. caller: i've got a race here between casey and smith and you

had a debate that's so similar talking about jobs and natural gas and oil. and some of the problems that obama and some of these democrat candidates have they kind of tend to support the e.p.a. and trying to stifle all the jobs and exploration and production of our natural resources. so it struck me as they all seem to have the same thing going on it's going to be i feel a tide al wave of republican victories because of the jobs and the energy resources that are being stifled by obama and so the democrats. >> there's a story this morning from the paper the headline says that turnout will tell whether the president or romney wins pennsylvania. is it that close? caller: i'm feeling a surge in this state. i think it's coming down to jobs and obama really messed up when he decided to support the environmental cysts over our natural gas workers and coal

miners. he threw them under the bus. and now i think it's going to cost him. host: we go next to pennsylvania. kathy democrat's line. how do you pronounce where you live? >> thayer. caller: i want to comment on the snat debate. in montana. i've been hearing a lot about people that democrats and republicans we're all americans out here and i'm seeing a lot of frustration with a lot of people that why can't we all just get together and stop all this person did this and this person did that? you know, i voted for our president and i've watched in disgrace that nobody has any kind of respect for him. he's really tried.

he's trying now. he's standing up for all americans. he's been honest. he's still fighting for us. and why is it that everybody keeps complaining and blaming the government? it's not the system that's the problem. it's the people who are misusing the system. it's like if they're in there and they have the power they can do whatever they want. you know? they don't really want to help anybody. they just want to make more money. so where does that leave us out here the last 200 years? >> the president's agenda inand mitt romney's includes several states. two events tonight the romneys in colorado tonight at 8:25. and not only can you see it on c-span, you can catch it on c-span radio. he'll be with his wife an

romney. president obama and former president clinton will apeer in virginia this evening. watch that at about 10:35 this evening. the campaign rally there part of other events that we will bring you clear up to election day. and as you look at that information let's go to ohio. caller: yeah. i've watched the debate there between the democrat and the republican. it's amazing two educated men like that both agree with some of both. they're good men. but why can't they work together? two heads are better than one. now, the democrats they talk about the bailout. well, what did the taxpayer bail them out? what did we get?

we're still giving gas and diesel guzzling automobiles and pickups. host: caller you watched the montana debate. can you weigh in on the senate debate in your home state senator brown and josh manned el in ohio and what you think might happen with that? caller: well, shared brown had 20 years to do something but he ain't done nothing. host: so who do you plan on voting for? caller: well, he had better come up with some different ideas. i talked to his office here the other day. and some of the pronlses that they tell me -- promises that they tell me i'm waiting to see if he comes through. host: so you vote ford him in years past? caller: yes.

host: maryland, thanks for holding on. the democrat's line. good morning. caller: good morning. i have three quick points i want to make regarding the elections in general and specifically i guess to the congressional. for one thing, what happened in 2010 with that mid term as they call it, i don't think it was that people who had supported obama deserted him that a lot of them said. what happened is a lot of new voters, especially the young who had voted for him and others as well do not know the significance or don't seem to know the significance of voting in all elections not just the presidential. but that it's important to vote for those congressional people because that way you've already

maybe voted and got your coach and you think he's going to do everything that is the president but the -- he needs a team of people in congress to work that are willing to work with him. so it's important to vote in those two-year elections as well as when it's presidential. not even the media makes a point of this. host: who are you supporting there in your home state? caller: i'm supporting those people who concur with obama. with -- i'm a democrat. so i have democrats that i feel i can vote for for those to be in congress and also at the state and lovely levels that will support him. and just one other point here, please. i'm really getting ashamed of the country. with regard to this squabble

over the money and with people who have money that is just rolling wads and wads with some people who make more than others in the family and when they get in trouble the ones that are making a lot of money just say well i'm sitting on my tough you pay the bills. this is really laughable all over the world. and host: we have to leave it there. thank you for your call again. we're taking your calls concerning election 2012 leading up to several reairs of debates this afternoon. if you want to give us a call in the few minutes that we have left you can try to do so. this is los angeles next lewis republican line. caller: hello, pedro. and this is the first time i've ever called a station and i do want to make a comment. the people i'm watching on your show that are complaining about republicans and democrats not working together from what i've seen so far the people in the house of representatives many of them are able to work

together. and they passed many, many bills that have gone up to the senate only to die under the leadership of harry reid. so for me, the big disappointment is that harry reid is pocketing every possible opportunity that the congress has to pass laws. and i don't know whether he's in colution with the president or what. but he is just not allowing any votes on anything that has anything to do with creating jobs or benefiting the country. and i can't tell you how disappointing that is. so for people to say why can't they work together, i would say why doesn't harry reid do his job and allow the senators to represent their states and vote on these issues? host: that's los angeles, california. in just a few moments you're going to get a chance to see a reair of the arizona senate debate. that took place between jeff make and rich carm owna the surgeon general. to give you a sense of the importance of this race and what's happening on the ground

there in arizona, for those who don't live in arizona but may be primed to watch our reair of it, what's important to know about this race especially with the gentlemen involved? >> the arizona guest: the arizona senate race has turned out to be much closer than folks expected. people saw carmonoa as a formidable candidate, but nationally, that did not get picked up until late in the cycle. it will turn into a bit of a nail biter as the election approaches. host: what is the pulling like? -- polling like? guest: it is all within margin of error. i recently saw a rasmussen told

that showed flake up a bit. host: if you had to boil down the messages from the candidates, what would it be? flake, books will remember him as a congressional reformer. he crusaded against your marks. people remember him offering amendments late at night on the house floor. he is kind of focus on a financial and economic message, restoring fiscal sanity, avoiding the fiscal cliff. dr. carmona was a registered independent for years. he was an independent in the bush administration. he switched to run as a democrat. he has been pushing himself as nonpartisan. host: what has been the message of these gentleman toward each other? guest: it has gotten nasty.

flake brought in carmona's former supervisor, criticizing him for issues with women, anger, and ethics. the democrats have been blistering flight. he is a staunch conservative. he would often be the only "no" vote on a spending bill. they are cherry picking votes, , saying, look what he voted against. host: what are you watching for? guest: a key will be whether the latino turnout is bigger than usual. if dr. carmona is elected, he will be the first latino senator from arizona. there is a lot of interest in it, a story about how latino

voter numbers have surged since -- since 2008. there has been a lot of interest in trying to energize the latino vote this year. host: dan nowicki has been covering politics of large. you now have a chance to see this debate between republican congressman jeff flake and dr. richard carmona. this race is rated as a tossup. this debate comes courtesy of awc tv services in yuma, arizona. this last about an hour. >> i am with public media. on behalf of the human son, welcome to the u.s. senate debate. today, we will hear from democratic and republican candidates for the united

states senate, dr. carmona and congressman flake. we will take questions, and candidates will respond to local journalists. each candidate will have 90 seconds to respond to each question, and 30 seconds of rebuttals. built into the schedule is an additional four minutes, should be moderate our panelists wish to us as a follow-up. on our panel today is news director and evening anchor, a reporter, and a morning edition house and reporter. joining us today are over 300 residents, close to, from southwestern arizona. they have agreed to respect the candidates and listened silently during the debate, with the exception of right now. please welcome to human

congressman -- to yuma the candidates for the united states senate. [applause] gentlemen, thank you both for coming to this debate. let us get started with opening statements. going first is dr. carmona. >> a pleasure to be with you today. thank you for the opportunity to be with you. i am not a politician, nor do i aspire to become a chronic politician. when asked to run by my fellow doctors, soldiers, and others i work with, the first response was, i am running as far away from washington as i can. i know how dysfunctional it is, having been there as surgeon

general of the united states. i realized that is the reason i need to step up and run again. if my grandmother and my mom were still alive, there would be disappointed if i did not accept their responsibility. this is my first campaign. i am still learning the process. i am running because i benefited from the american infrastructure of opportunity, starting out as a poor hispanic kid. i experienced hunger, homelessness, dropped out of high school. the only thing before me it was uncertainty, but i was able to become a special forces soldier, get a ged, and was lucky enough to get into a junior college that had opened an iv, and veterans. i used my gi bill to become a doctor, a cop, a professor, and surgeon general of the united states. i am learning to assure that all kids can attain the american dream, just as i did.

thank you. >> the reminder that the clock is in front of you. >> , i think all of you. i think the community at arizona western college. just two weeks ago, my wife and i received the best call parents can get. our oldest son informed us that we are grandparents for the first time. he was going into a wonderful family, in the greatest country in the world, but also into $50,000 of debt. that is his share of the federal debt, the $16 trillion federal debt that all of us collectively hold. that is the transcendent issue of our time. that is generational theft, to put the burden on kids and grandkids. we need somebody who is willing to stand up to either party, against this overspending. that has been my record in the house. that is the record by a plan to

take to the senate. that is why the largest newspaper endorsed my candidacy. they know i will stand up. we are here today debating arizona issues. that is important, because this seat is currently held by senator kyl. he has made that his focus. arizona -- all of these things are important. we need to make sure that whoever has this seat understands them and will advocate for them. thank you for having me here. >> let's begin the questions portion of the debate. the first question is to congressman flake. >> thank you for being here. we are going to begin with water allocation. water allocation has not been legislated by the federal government in more than 50 years. since that time populations of states sharing rights to the colorado river have changed drastically.

arizona uses 99% of its allocation and have promised more water to two reservations in the northern part of the state. what do you plan to do to ensure the water rights are protected while minimizing the environmental effect? >> that is an important question for the state. senator kyl has been the one that has negotiated a lot of the allocation that we have. the allocation is always going to be an issue. that is why it is important to have people in the senate who understand the issue and are willing to advocate for the state. sitting to our west as california with a 53-member delegation. you have to fight hard and make sure that our water does not go there. also, here in yuma there are concerns it will be allocated in the state.

urban areas will get water that is intended here. i promised to you and to everybody here is to ensure that we make sure allocation comes here and elsewhere. water is the lifeblood of arizona. we have to make sure it remains and we have allocations' reflected by both population and also agriculture and some of the traditional uses in arizona. >> that is a great question to start on because congressman flake and i do agree on issues, like water, we want to make sure we do not seize water to anyone else and somebody stands up to fight for the water supply. the potential for contaminating water and putting 23 million people at risk to use the water every day.

there is no monetary benefit to the state when we do that because of the laws of mining, we will not be able to get anything there. i am surprised you would risk putting 25 million people at risk by potentially contaminating their water. we know this is true. i am concerned you would jeopardize 25 million people and the water here by really aggressively trying to move legislation to allow uranium mining. it is not just me. the arizona republic, the arizona daily star, the sun said your actions were shameless and irresponsible. i think that is something you need to deal with. >> i am concerned that my opponent does not seem to

understand arizona geography. we are talking about mining in the arizona strip, not the grand canyon. i am trying to protect the bipartisan agreement called the arizona wilderness act that was negotiated by barry goldwater on one side, the sierra club on one side, the chamber of commerce on the other, that protected the grand canyon and also recognize we would need economic activity in the arizona strip. that is what i am trying to protect. >> i do understand the geography. apparently, there is a difference of opinion. we are talking about aquifer. the watershed area that extends far beyond the canyon. any mining is potentially deleterious. it will contaminate aquifer that brings water down. i was very careful to say, this is grand canyon watershed risk. 25 million people rely on it and the watershed to provide water

for the area as well as california and other areas. >> we are going to get a quick look at a lot of topics now. the next question. >> yuma county has the highest unemployment in the nation month after month with 25% or 30% of its work force looking for jobs. what ideas do you have for improving the economy and creating jobs, in particular for rural areas? would this be a top priority for you? >> it is a top priority for me. first and foremost, we have to do something about reforming the tax structure. small businesses are taxed at 35%. that is not sustainable in this environment today. we have to change the loopholes at the top. big companies like ge and

others pay no taxes and small companies pay up to 35%. we need to make it fair to everybody. it needs to be transparent. first and foremost, we have to create an environment that our small businesses can thrive. when we look at the uniqueness on the border that is different and the tax reform or the nation, we need immigration reform. as i travel the border and i meet with agricultural people, we have a work force problem because the immigration system and the visa system is broken. we can't get workers to go back and forth. it takes hours to go back and forth. these problems trade an impediment to congress. we have to be able to provide a work force but can move back and forth easily. we are not able to do that because of the impediments that are there by not having an effective comprehensive immigration policy. that becomes an economic issue as well. the workers here who want to work, there is not enough of them. the workers who come across the border to take care of the ranches and agricultural

industry, they can i get back and forth like they want to. the ranchers are telling us every day, we desperately need immigration solved because it is and economic problem. thank you. >> you pose a great question here. unemployment around the country is at an unacceptable level of around 8%. it has remained so for about 43 months until a row with this administration and the democratically controlled senate. in yuma, it is 25% or 30%. we have to have certainty on tax rates moving ahead. it is the certainty of regulation that is really stifling. we have a federal agencies whether environmental, health care regulation, labor regulation, financial regulation, it is all consuming.

then one of the biggest job killers out there is the health care plan. i just spoke to a small business this morning from yuma. he has 44 employees. he is planning on hiring four more and that is all. do you know why? if he gets to 50 employees, then he starts getting fined for not providing health care insurance that the president and others think he ought to provide. that means fewer jobs. he said, i will simply pay overtime and make them work saturdays. i cannot hit 50. you have seen the same thing happening with small businesses and franchisees. they are moving people from full-time to part-time because they do not want to hit the threshold. that is a huge job killer. we have to repeal it. that is a commitment i will make you. when i get to the senate, i will vote to repeal the health care plan. my opponent will not. >> first and foremost, i think

you can see the partisanship by which congressman flake comes to the issue. it is always blaming the other side. that is the problem we have with congress. congress is not working because it is full of people that cannot have a rational discussion. we are spending 18% of our gdp on health care. when i look at the health care plan before us, i have been critical of it as well. the congressman's plan is to rescind it and we still have 50 million people without insurance. we will have more people coming into the market. it will be transferred to all of you. he will pick up the cost for people who do not have insurance. that is not a plan. the public will be shouldering the burden and the doctors and hospitals will pick up more uncompensated care. >> we have to repeal the president's health care plan. the president promised when this was past that it would lower premiums by $2,500 per family.

it has raised premiums by about $2,500 per family. what is in the future, not just for those who pay premiums but also the taxpayers at the state level, the problems our state has had with the budget will be multiplied. we cannot go in that direction. we desperately need health care reform. we cannot go the direction of the president's health care plan. >> should you be elected, would you be willing to put the weight of your office behind finding out what the causes are and the solutions to the high unemployment in here in yuma county? >> i want to finish the issue of health care because it plays into unemployment as well. congressman flake's plan is not really a plan. whether it is a voucher, we the

people are still going to shoulder the burden. hospitals and doctors will get more uncompensated care. both parties have gotten it wrong. they're not addressing the cost of care. the cost of care comes from 75 cents of every dollar spent on chronic diseases, most of which are preventable. >> some question to you, would you be willing to put the weight of your office behind finding the causes and solutions to unemployment here in yuma county? the word traditional has been applied. it is not a compliment. >> some of the issues has to deal with the issue raised here with regard to being near the border. seasonal work that comes on. being susceptible to national trends when it comes to unemployment and the economy. we need some things desperately here like a commuter plan that will make it easier for labor to come across in the daytime and back at night. that is not allowed easily in

our system. one thing we have to avoid is a sequestration that is looming at the end of the year. that will hurt our military readiness. for an area like yuma that relies on the defense industry, it would be devastating. we have to make sure we look at that issue. with the health care plan, that means fewer jobs, not more. that is what we have to look at. the uncertainty on taxes and the certainty of regulation. nextt's move on to our question that comes from michelle. >> access to healthcare in rural arizona can be difficult. many problems include a lack of health care providers, state and federal funding cuts, access, and the loss of facilities when patients cannot

pay, there is further financial loss to the institution. our local hospital lost $40 million this year alone from unpaid treatments that contributed to the layoffs of 135 employees. do you have a plan to help improve the health services available to patients in rural arizona? >> i grew up in snowflake. i know the issues. i know the difficulty my parents had at times to find doctors willing to treat them on medicare. that is going to become exacerbated as we go forward with the president's health care plan as well. let me take another issue you mentioned. you really feel the uncompensated care here on the border. i know the issues that are faced with federal rules where you are required to treat anybody that

comes, that means unless the federal government reimburses, the hospital has to do it and the taxpayers here. that is not fair. that is why we in the congress have worked hard to make sure hospital funding, reimbursements are there. it is something yuma cannot control. the burden is a federal responsibility. but the costs are borne by the community -- healthcare, education. we need a plan to deal with that, but it has to start with the federal government doing what it has to do if they impose mandates. the mandates need to be funded. with the federal health-care plan, it will exacerbate the problem we have access to doctors in rural areas.

>> the congressman said he has come down to the border and visited a hospital. i have worked here for over one quarter of a century. i have been a police officer on the border working with the border patrol. i have been a registered nurse. my whole life has been about caring for others. these are issues i do not have to visit, i have lived them every single day of my life right up to the cabinet level in dealing with this. i know the issues along the border and how difficult they are. this is not about getting more doctors, we have to revamp the health-care system. the congressman is stuck on a sound bite from his party that you have to rescind the affordable health care act. governor romney himself said, there is some good stuff in here. pre-existing conditions. kids covered to 26, that is good. if your kids are like mine, you want them covered to 26. we look at our seniors and the doughnut hole.

even governor romney said we should retain these. the aca has good things in it, but it needs a better business plan. we have to recognize it is not all about doctors. this is a multidisciplinary team that needs to be put into the community to deal with doctors, nurses. we have to reform the system to one that promotes optical care. simply doing what the congressman wants to rescind aca, we will incur a whole lot of debt and more problems because people will continue to get sick. >> i have worked with him. i am proud to have his support. if i was not down here working the issues, i would not have his support. he is a meoc -- democratic

sheriff. with regard to the hospitals again and patient care and access to doctors, whether we like it or not, the president's health care plan is an impediment to better access. >> the congressman thinks by rescinding the plan this will correct the problem. both parties have gotten it wrong. they are not addressing the issues that are germane to the rising costs of health care. is killing small businesses and making it difficult for people to get insurance. we need a new system. we need to address the variables that contribute to the cost of health care. rescinding this does not do it. the congressman mentions he has endorsements. i am a police officer half of my life. most of the police associations as well as the national association of police organizations which i was chosen as a national top cop, they have

endorsed me as well. that is not what we are talking about. we're talking about solving problems. >> the amount of money the state spends on each student in arizona is around $1,300. that is the second lowest. nearly half of all students who attend rural schools live in poverty. fewer than 7 in 10 students will graduate, perpetuating the cycle of poverty. funding for schools is tied to property-tax is which means schools in rural areas will continually get less money. how do you plan to legislate the education budget to ensure students in low income areas are funded more fairly? >> i am a product of a community college. i could not get into college because i was a high-school dropout coming back from combat.

somebody had the wisdom to say, let's give these kids an opportunity. i had a gi bill to give me some money so i could get educated. i know the value of community colleges. i know what they bring to the community. we have to restructure how we invest at enter our communities. we have so many problems with unemployment, small business is struggling. we need an economic base that can allow the schools to thrive. comprehensive tax reform is the way we have to start. we have to create incentives within the communities of people that are innovators want to come here. this is a beautiful state. when people want to hire people that generates the higher tax base, they ask, how about your school system? it is not doing so well. how about the health care system? how about the arts, theatre, extracurricular? we need to build an infrastructure of opportunity that makes this the most attractive place in the nation to stay. we could be the solar capital of

the world. right now we need coal. coal is 30% of where the energy is coming from. we can actually do a lot of things. all of the solar panels we have out here. this is where we are going in the long run. can do toings we generate revenue and a stronger tax base, which would support our schools. >> thank you. k-12 education is a function of state government and the federal government, ungratefully. the federal government provides a% of the funding that goes into local schools. with that 8% comes 70% of the mandates and stipulations and paperwork that tied the hands of local schools, teachers, administrators. with regards to what the federal government should do, your question is very relevant with

low risk pools. rural schools are having the problem, what is the future like the navajo station or the coronado power plant which the epa is trying to shut down. if you want to affect local schools, and allow the epa to move ahead and impose restrictions that will force the power plants to shut down. it is devastation in a local community. we have seen that happen in my home town of snowflake. we have a paper mill that shutdown that would still be up and running and helping us manage the forest, but it cannot anymore because the epa has taken us out completely. that devastates the community. we have to make sure economic development can come. there is a large impediment right now with some of the federal agencies. arizona is 85% publicly owned.

it matters what the federal government imposes. >> congressman flake and i agree on some things. i do not agree as he does that we should abolish the department of education, nor that we should abolish the epa. who does not want clean water and air? pretty straightforward. congress regulates those agencies. he has been there a in office for a dozen years. the only have the authorities bestowed on them by congress. arizona is different. we cannot regulate dust, this is arizona. it is congress that has the ability to hold them accountable. >> you are right, that is congress's role. for the past three and a half years, we have been unable to exercise that role. the senate under harry reid's control has not passed a budget.

we do not go through regular order passing appropriations bills one by one. when you do go through regular order, it allows me to work with democrats to actually ran the agencies. when the senate will not pass a budget, we cannot do that here we lose our power. that is why the senate needs to change leadership. >> the next question for congressman flake. >> both of you have touched on the subject of my next question, but i would like to go into it in more depth. in yuma county, farmers have advocated for a worker guest program that would allow people who live in mexico to cross the border each morning to work in yuma's fields and return home at night. is fixing the guest worker

program something you support, and what features to you consider critical? >> we do need to revamp it. we need a better h2a program, but let's stick to agricultural programs now. do not have a program robust enough to take care of the needs we have now. otherwise, we will be shipping jobs to mexico or elsewhere. here and in the imperial valley in california, they are saying we do not have the work force, and i believe them. here in yuma, the h2a program is ill suited because a lot of people living in mexico can come and work and then return home. the program requires housing and transportation be required by the employer. that does not make sense. we need a computer program that allows people to come here and move back.

that is why the farm bureau has not supported the ag worker bill that is a pretty good fix for the h2a but does not address the commuter program. my commitment is to work on the issues in a way that will give access to labor that we need to keep the jobs here in america and not ship them elsewhere. >> again, congressman flake and i agree a lot of the policies and procedures are antiquated. this question lends itself to one of my earlier answers. we need comprehensive immigration reform. the border needs to be secure, there is no question about it. we cannot let it be an impediment to progress since so many jobs require it. we are in agreement on those issues. again, the congressman has been there one dozen years. whether it is the epa and

blaming the democrats on the other side because they did not regulate appropriately and only the republicans will have the right answer does not make sense. the system is broken. both sides are getting it wrong because each side digs their heels in and we do not get anything done. whether immigration reform, or specifics of a visa moving across the border, we have to start solving problems. that is why people are fed up. that is why congress's ratings are as low as they have ever been. people want the problems solved. that is not happening. >> outlining the problem is correct, but i can tell you my record in congress has been one to reach across the aisle. i have worked on a comprehensive immigration reform. i have worked with senator kennedy. we try to get comprehensive reform through. unfortunately, we cannot give the trust level until we have a secure border.

on other issues as well, i have been able to pass more floor amendments than any of my democrat or republican colleagues over the past four years because i work with the other side. that is what we need a center of the senate. >> the congressman talks about his bipartisanship. the fact is, that is not true. he votes with his party more than michele bachman does. his words were, congressman flake abandon me on immigration. when it was convenient to was with me, when he wanted to be a senator, he left. i think it is disingenuous. to be a congressman, you have to show up at work. if you look at 12 years of his attendance in committees and subcommittees, it got 1300 that are listed, he has missed 800 of them. if any of us had missed two- thirds of our work, we would be fired. >> my opponent has brought this

up before and it is simply not true. it is completely not true in terms of the attendance record, i think he is trying to cover for something that we pointed out. dr. carmona did not vote in the 2010 elections in the general or the primary. if you are going to ask for people's votes, it helps to have a voted in the last election. that is not true. i can tell you, i do work across the aisle. when the president proposed immigration reform, he will not propose a temporary or guest worker plan. it is not comprehensive anymore for the president. >> the next question is for dr. carmona. >> the border between arizona and mexico is host to six ports of entry. officers are charged with preventing the movement of prohibit commercial products, pets, illegal migrants, drugs, weapons, and potential threats

to national security. all of these things they must do without slowing legitimate traffic, including more than $20 billion of imports and exports each year. that is in arizona alone. what can the government do to help small border communities plan and execute improvements to the infrastructure leading to and improving ports of entry? what will if any does the government have in expediting on the mexican side of the border? >> i think clearly we have to and partnership with our counterparts in mexico have that discussion so we can actually be able to integrate our resources. when i was surgeon general, i spent a lot of time working internationally on our international preparedness plan. it really is about striking a balance between both. the border becomes an issue

because of national security, but is also a thoroughfare to commerce that you point out. if we look at the blue and green uniforms, we have to find a balance. this is a portal for commerce as well as keeping ourselves healthy and safe and secure. as we look at the amount of people coming across, which is the net decrease in this state, including the vitriolic expressions of some people who had alienated people who do not want to come here anymore, we need more help on the border. we need to use technology more so we can move trucks and people back and forth. it is a federal opportunity. the border is a federal responsibility. we cannot go along the in this piecemeal, and a fashion with a broken immigration program and not have comprehensive reform. comprehensive reform is about economics, making the border

more secure, it is about facilitating the goods and people on a regular basis so they can work here and go home. we all profit from that. the federal government has an important role. >> we have gratefully better infrastructure over the past couple of years. we are having trouble getting appropriate staffing for the ports. that has been stressful for those of us and congress. we have not been able to get a staffing model to tell us how much money we need to authorize and appropriate for the sports. -- ports. in the last go around, i passed an amendment in the house to dock the secretary's office a

token amount to come up with a staffing model because we have been begging them to tell us what we need to appropriate to appropriately staffed the ports. it is about $7 million that comes to our state from people crossing from mexico in spending money just a in retail shops. the produce industry is about a $20 billion industry that comes mostly through nogales. it is important for the state that we do not just have enough and green uniforms, but the blue uniforms to make sure the ports are adequately staffed. >> congressman flake and i are in agreement on staffing. i feel that we have to enhance our use of higher technology so we can increase the movement back and forth. i want to go back to comprehensive immigration reform. part of the burden we have on the side is the apprehension and incarceration of people who did

not get deported. without comprehensive immigration reform, we're still going to have an economic burden. we will have impeachment's going back and forth across the border. this is about stopping the problem that has been perpetuated by congress failing to act. >> we have to make sure we get these appropriately staffed. comprehensive immigration reform is desperately needed. first, we have to ensure the tucson sector looks more like the yuma sector. there has been wonderful cooperation with local law enforcement and the federal government in making this border here, the 88 miles of this sector secure. we have to do the same in tucson. and we can move on to all of the thorny issues that are needed there including guest worker plans and making sure we have access to labor.

>> i appreciate you both sticking to the clock closely. we only have three questions to go. >> proposition 120 calls to change the constitution and declares state sovereignty. if proposition 120 does pass and federal and state courts upheld the constitutionality, what do you plan to do to ensure the state is reaping the financial benefits of acquiring the land without compromising the environment? >> i have not studied this carefully or this proposal, but i am skeptical about the outlook. other states have talked about doing this kind of thing to having more influence over the federal lands. i think it is require more than a proposition at the state level. we need better corporation between the state and the federal government to manage the federal lands that we have. right now we have wonderful national parks and intrastate, but we have a backlog in terms

of maintenance. we have the largest ponderosa stand in the world, but not if we keep having these fires. we have to make sure we have a rational policy with regard to mining interests as well. we do not have that now. we do not have the federal government allowing us to do a simple land transfer to allow resolution copper to expand and to create more than 3000 jobs. these kinds of things need cooperation between the federal government and the state. we have not had that. >> we are talking proposition 120, but it does have implications for the management of public lands. but let's not forget, we are the united states of america.

it is silly to talk about partially seceding from the union. that does not make any sense to drop out because you disagree with somebody. our strength is the agglomeration of 50 states. we're not going to regulate dust, obviously. the things the congressman brought up is important. we need cooperation, but that is the problem we have of congress today. there is no cooperation. all we do is bicker and fight and point fingers at each other. it is is about time that the public speaks up. again, i will go back to the fact that 90% of the public is disheartened by how they have been represented. we have to start solving these problems. the challenge is really to get

congress to cooperate and stop the bickering on both sides. >> thank you. part of reining in federal agencies and working with the federal government cooperatively has to start with the senate passing a budget. i cannot over emphasize the importance of that. most people look at the fiscal aspects. those are important. the real effect is without a senate budget, the house and senate do not go through regular order and we are not able to work -- we are able to cooperate across the aisle. when we pass amendments, we know that the senate will not pick them up because they have not passed a budget and will just do one bill at the end of the year with everything thrown in. that has to stop. >> i will go back to what i said. congress is the inherent problem here. the congressman went the other

side as if all good solutions only come from one party. both sides got it wrong whether in health-care or anything else. the congressman chooses to blame the other side. there is much more we can do cooperatively. the congressman has taken positions that are ideologically driven and attached himself to congressman aiken. he has been a proponent of redefining rape as legitimate rate. -- rape. these are things we need to be talking about. health care for women, our veterans, and our seniors. >> i think the congressman should get a chance to respond to that. >> i am willing to work with the other side and i challenge my own party when needed. when we had the earmark problem for years, i went to the house floor and challenged my own party more than anybody because my own party was in charge. they were not doing the right thing. i was removed from one of my committees for punishment for what they called bad behavior.

that was standing up to my own party on these issues. i do work with the other side. the other side has to be willing to pass a budget. that is the problem. we in the house are passing budgets and the senate is not. >> the farm bill sets conservation and forest tree policy. the last farm bill expired in september. while food stamps, commodity support will continue to receive funding, there is no support for the lower profile programs that drive innovation, create jobs, and support the next generation of farmers critical to rural areas such as yuma county. if elected, would you consider a new farm bill a priority? what changes to the legislation would elected advocate? >> when i am elected, it will most likely be a priority for me.

i realize how antiquated the farm bill is. i recognize how it is a broken congress. they forget we have a big agricultural community here that desperately needs to support to be able to do its job. having the supports in place, having an updated farm bill that addresses the issue but also a farm bill that addresses health. the farm bill is tied to health as well. sometimes, we are the ones contributing to the problem because of a policy. we have to look at that very critically and ssay, how do we ensure there is an infrastructure of opportunity here for the agricultural community? how do we ensure trade and trade balances are dealt with?

[no audio] >> we need to redo the farm bill and with that will give certainty ahead. it needs to be changed and revamped considerably. for a community like this that farms mostly fresh vegetables, you get very little from the farm bill. let me tell you how out of whack it is right now, when the last farm bill was authorized, some said the we are subsidizing cotton is wrong. we cannot do that. the brazilians will sue us. they will win. they can impose tariffs and everything else. guess what? they did. now, instead of changing the way we subsidized cotton farmers, we are paying $150 million a year to brazil to subsidize there, and so we will not have to change the way we provide subsidies here. that is wrong.

that is out of whack. so is a program of direct subsidies and direct payment where we give farmers money whether they grow crops or not. that is out of whack, and a great filly that seems to be changing. i am proud to have worked for years to try to get rid of the ethanol subsidies that we have. $6 billion of a tax credit for something that is not working and is actually a detriment to the environment as well. that has gone now, and that is a good thing. >> as i said in my remarks and the congressman expanded, i think we are in agreement that much is to be done with reforming the farm bill and ensuring it is contemporary and thought and nature and how it supports the farmers in our area. the challenge is, we have a broken congress. why was this not done? we have been kicking the can down the road for years.

each party blames the other person. this is not that difficult to deal with. we know the issues, we know the issues about tariffs and subsidies, we have to have reasonable people sit down and solve the problems. that is the politics killing us now. party politics is not letting us of the problems. >> congress is certainly dysfunctional. the figures say not only 90 -- 90% said congress is not only during a good job, i would like to meet the 10% who think congress is doing a good job. i have a thing to tell them. a senate that has not passed a budget in 1200 days is dysfunctional. it has to change. it is not enough to say that we need to work together. we do, but you have to have specifics. you have to have knowledge of how the programs work in order to sit down with the other side and actually come to a rational agreement.

>> we have reached the final question. it will be directed to congressman flake. >> we have covered several issues that are relevant to rural areas in arizona. if you are elected to the senate, which of the issues would you be able to tell rural arizonans that you championed for them if he were to run for reelection in 2013? -- 2016? >> first, i mentioned our problem with forest health. we have worked over the past several years on the initiative. this allows us to have industry in the forest on a commercial basis that helps us then the forest where needed that will save the forests from environmental disaster when another fire comes. we just let out the first

contract. a group called pioneer will move deeper into the forest, not just to run the communities. that is something that is desperately needed that we have done. if the epa is successful, if the obama administration is successful at shutting down the navajo generating station, that will be devastating for the state. that is something we are fighting. the epa said the other day they are not just looking at njf, they are looking at coronado and apache as well. i had a letter and had every member sign it to tell the epa to slow down. let's have some public comment and some more hearings. we are working on those issues, and we have to continue to. you have to be able to work with the other side on the issues. >> would you repeat the question? >> several issues are relevant

to rural arizonans. if you are to win the election, which would you say that you have championed for them if you run for reelection? >> first and foremost, jobs and the economy. we are desperate here. we have a 30% unemployment rate. there is a lot can do that we have mentioned already. create an environment that is conducive to attracting business here. it includes tax reform. closing the loopholes of the top. helping small businesses and keeping taxes low for arizona families. it also includes the immigration reform. this is an economic issue as well. well below that the border as an economic issue as well and national security, we have to enhance, we improve security. we have to be able to inspire small and large businesses to

come here because it is a wonderful place to live. we have to create an environment through tax credits and give people opportunities to come here. there are plenty of people who would put capital at risk if they felt this was a secure environment, if they felt the schools were better than they are. it is about moving a family here. i think that is most important to arizona. we get our fiscal house in order. we have jobs for everybody. we change the climate we have. you cannot do that without comprehensive tax reform and comprehensive changes along the border that includes securing the border and being much more innovative with visas, permits, pathways to citizenship, and the dreamers. >> with regard to jobs and the economy, what we need is a change from the current course that this administration and this senate has put us on. it is a course that has higher

taxes, more regulation. assuming we can redistribute the same pie we have rather than growing the pie. we need a change, particularly in the rural arizona. we are disproportionately affected when the federal government over regulates, in particular with public lands. we have to have somebody willing to go back to washington and advocate and stand firm on these issues. that is what i plan to do. >> the question of overregulation is one we have heard several times today, and clearly the epa in trying to regulate dust does not make sense. what we have learned is one size does not fit all. arizona has unique needs and regulatory opportunities. it goes back to congress. congress gives the authority to the epa to regulate. blaming the epa because congress failed is disingenuous to me. the epa cannot work without authorization from the federal

government. we have to put that in check so it does not impede the economy whether call or anything else let us they are trying to regulate. >> we have gone through all the questions. we have reached the closing statement. you have 90 seconds. >> thank you. i appreciate the opportunity to be here today. i will state the obvious. i am not a politician. i am not running to keep a party in power or looking for a new career. i know the collective future depends on a reasonable republicans and democrats to act as a statesman in great civility and solve our problems. we have not seen compromise for a while. i am running to restore trust in government to the american people. to ensure every kid can obtain their american dream as i did. i want to thank you for the opportunity to be here today. i ask for your support and but so i can have the privilege to

represent as the next senator from arizona. >> i was glad to talk about arizona issues here today. i am a fifth generation arizonan, raised in rural arizona. i know what communities struggle with when the federal government is overbearing. that has to change. the course that we are on right now, we need to work together desperately. the problem is, the congress cannot unless we have a senate that functions. when the senate does not pass the budget again, it is not letting the congress regulate the epa to tell them what they can and cannot regulate. we have to have a change in course. it is not enough to say you agree with your opponent, you have to have a position on the issues and advocate for them. go to washington standing for something. if you do not stand for

something, you will fall for anything that harry reid puts on your lap. that is what we have had lately in washington. a budget is not passed, both sides cannot work together. my history has been reaching across the aisle, fighting my own party when needed. making sure that we compromise when it is needed. barry goldwater once said politics is nothing more than public business. sometimes you make the best of a mixed bargain. we know that is needed. we have to have people with the temperament and ability to do so. i ask for your vote. i will value it, and i will never forget where i came from. >> that wraps up the rural issues debate from the campus here in yuma, arizona. thank you for being so respectful. that wraps it up. have a good day. >> you just watched the debate

for the u.s. senate seat in arizona. if you want to watch this and other debates, has seen and c- span, go to our web site, c- span.org. for the next couple of minutes, we want to talk about key senate races, and. joining us to highlight what is going on is bob to sec. we start with massachusetts. senator scott brown and elizabeth warren. where are we? >> you would have to give a slight edge to elizabeth warren. they have had a feisty debate. senator scott brown has run as the everyman. he is running good campaign. he has criticized his own party. he has been independent with his voting record, but he might be hurt by obama's coat tails in

massachusetts. a lot of money has been spent in this race. is one of the few republican- held seats. democrats are seeking to defend more than twice the amount of seats the republicans. republicans want to grab control of the senate, they will probably have to hold on to this seat. the thinking is obama's coat tails could propel elizabeth warren to victory. >> how are each doing as far as money and endorsements are concerned? >> endorsements, it is funny because scott brown has not touted the endorsements. he has endorsed mitt romney, but does not want to talk about it. during rebates, the debates, elizabeth warren kept -- during the debates, elizabeth warren repeated that obama had a

factor. scott brown said he is not running endorsement race. elizabeth warren says again and again that obama is her candidate. both candidates are flush with cash. that has not been an issue. there are both incredible fund- raisers. scott brown, when he won in 2010, he ran as a tea party candidate. now he is running more as a moderate candidate, hoping to win in a presidential election year. >> moving on to india, joe don lee against richard murdock. -- indiana, joe don lee against mr. murdoch. where do we stand? >> donnelly has survived. when he got into this race, a lot of people did not give him much of a chance. the only chance he had was if

richard murdock defeated dick lugar in the primary, and that happened. murdoch had the controversial remarks about rape recently, and now donnelly is up 11 points. this is a red state that will be voting for mitt romney. it is a devastating blow to the senate will go gop chances. -- senate gop put the chances. >> can you attribute that to female voters? males,s do it, and some too. the remarks did not sit well with either gender. the woman's vote is so important. this is something debt changed poll number -- that changed poll numbers right after the remarks. >> as far as today is concerned, where does senator brown -- brown stand?

>> a lot of corporate money has gone after sherrod brown, who has run an interesting campaign. he is a liberal, and calls himself as a crowd progress of -- calls himself a proud progressive. he is not tried to portray himself as a moderate. he has gone against-banned all -- -mandel, but brown has said he would be up double digits if it were not the outside money targeting a sherrod brown. right now, he might be able to hold off mandel, and that is a surprise because a couple of years ago you would think that brown would lose in that state because it is will be record is very liberal. -- because his voting record is very liberal. >> we just saw jeff flake and ricahrd carmona.

talk about this race. >> it is surprising that flake in a tough race. he is an early favorite, a different type of republican that has taken on his leadership. he once pushed immigration reform. he was attacked for that in the republican primary. he has been at odds with his own party on climate change this race is so close and so tight that it is a true tossups, and that is a big surprise. once again, it is a republican- held seats for center john kyl's caller:, who is retiring. they must win this race if they -- caller:, who is retiring. -- seat who is retiring.

they must win this race. >> fisher? >> it is tough. fisher was endorsed by sarah palin, and was up begun bob kerrey, a former senator, who has interestingly been endorsed by a couple of republicans, including alan simpson and chuck hegel, a former senator from nebraska. will it make a difference? probably not. i think fisher is likely to win this, especially on the converse of the opposite of massachusetts, this is a very read state, and fisher will be helped by the people that are voting for mitt romney. the polls show that the lead has gone from double digits to about

three. fisher is the favorite. >> when it comes to senate races, bob cusack, what are you watching specifically? >> you have to look to see -- there are some republicans and are running very well in the new states, linda mcmahon in connecticut, as well as scott brown who could certainly win his race, and that democrats in the red states like arizona, indiana, and missouri. that will be the difference. can the democrats in red states win, where will it be republicans in blue states? that will be the difference. you will have to have anomalies to win control of the senate. that is the interesting thing. some of these races like ohio, arizona, and indiana, they

changed just from one year ago. that is what we are looking at to see if democrats can hold off republicans, the five items and retain control of the senate. -- defied the odds, and retain control of the senate. >> thank you for your time, bob cusack. committed tomorrow and "washington journal" -- that program, your calls and a look of the papers at 7:00 a.m. tomorrow on c-span. tonight, mitt romney will be at about 8:45 p.m. in colorado.

president obama is traveling with former president bill clinton, and it will make an appearance in virginia at 10:35 p.m. this evening. you can see that on various platforms. now, coming up, a look at house races, a debate in the florida 18th congressional district with for the republican congressman allen west and democrat, patrick murphy where representative allen west who currently represents the 22nd district, is now running for the 18th house district. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> democrat patrick murphy,

republican allen west, the square off in a one-hour debate. >> this is a newschannel 5 special presentation. >> good evening, and welcome to the debate between our candidates tonight. they are democrat patrick murphy and republican allen west. thank you for joining us. i will be the moderator. as part of our coverage, joining me to ask questions are two of my colleagues. our format is simple. each will be asked a question and they will have one minute to respond. then a 30-second rebuttal. at the end of the broadcast, they will each have one minute

to make closing statements. we will try to get through a lot of topics. the first question will go to mr. west and will come from george. >> your opponent has based a lot of his campaign on the controversial things you say. you have called members of the congressional progressive caucus communists. you have said joseph goebbels would be proud of the democratic talking points. i think that was on the budget last year. you told a conservative women's group that they should stand up against liberal groups that were in your words neutering american men. your critics say that makes you a polarizing and divisive figure. it might be great for a cable tv, but makes you ineffective. how do you respond? >> look at my legislative agenda. i did not see any people from my campaign standing out hurling epithets at patrick murphy. we can see a lot from the ads.

i have to tell you, we have to have the discussion about ideology in this country. when we talk about progressivism, it is very easy to talk about communism, marxism, socialism, because the principles of governance is what is separating this country. with regard to the comment about goebbels, somebody asked a simple question, how do you feel about the majority of americans believe that the only people on capitol hill are republicans? there is a propaganda machine out there operating that goebbels could be proud of. i thought we lived in america where there was freedom of expression, and i will not be afraid of people because they get upset. >> keep an eye on the lights there. >> thank you again for being here this evening. it is an honor to be here.

the reason i got into this, the extremism of the tea party. that is no way to move the country. whether it is your family, business, we have to be able to work across the aisle and do the best for americans, the district, and when you are spending your time comparing your opponents to communists, that is not a good way to do things. there's no way we will be able to reach across the aisle and be able to work with each other. when i meet people, that is what i hear, what are you going to do with my medicare? >> jonathan, you would director question -- >> talk about bipartisanship,

one of the things my opponent has done, he says he will not join the blue dog coalition. obviously you are not willing to work within your own caucus. i talked to dennis kucinich about when he came to me about working on libya because the president violated the war powers act. or when i worked about that congressional gold medal for marines. my legislative record shows plenty of bipartisanship. >> thank you. >> those are the examples you always point to. when you only have two examples, is a problem. i am a new democrat, a business democrat, fiscally irresponsible and socially acceptable. at the end of the day, i used to be republican. i'm focused on doing what is best for america, not focused on whether republicans,

democrats, independents think. >> given the tone the race has taken, can you look across the table and say your opponent is unfit to be a member of congress? >> we have different views as part of what makes the congress so great is it is the people's house. voters are not happy with the representation, they can vote to people out. at the end of the day it is up to the voters. i got into this race because i think our country is at a tipping point. we face serious challenges, and we need people who are serious about getting our country back on track. i will focus on protecting that middle class, protecting the promise to our seniors. >> when you talk about the fundamental principles, you want to call it extremism, but we talk about limited government.

that comes from the declaration. talk about fiscal responsibility. your party has taken us to over $16 trillion debt. we talk about freedoms and sovereignty. when you look at what has proposed coming out of the democratic party to raise taxes, that only yields you $85 billion in new revenue. it is not sustain the government for more than 21 days. that is the position you have signed on with. but we are talking about stabilizing tax rates. but are not talking about the capital gains tax. death taxes -- i have been talking to farmers. that will kill our industry. i have been talking to people as well, but you did not go to the north palm beach county chamber of commerce. >> we will talk about jobs.

let's talk about the improving trends in florida. unemployment in palm beach county down to 9.2%. an improving trend. st. lucie county, 13.6% to 11.7%. democrats argue across florida and the nation, the trend line is headed in the right direction and that is a powerful case for continuing democratic policies. your response? >> i think when you look at the governors in the states where you have seen unemployment decreasing, these are republican governors. they are putting in job- creating policies. if you look at the computation, a lot of the -- underemployed and had completely dropped off

the rolls, that is 14.7%. when you drive up the highway, you see too many close to storefronts. business owners are concerned about too many things. onerous tax policies, lack of access to capital. >> we have to look at where we were four years ago. we were bleeding over 800,000 jobs and month. the dow was cut in half. the housing market had just fallen. it's things are slowly coming around. people are upset in this district because we have not come out of this recession quicker. we are on the path to recovery. we have had over 31 straight

months of job growth. the stock market has almost doubled. we got to continue down this path and not go to the failed policies of the bush administration that got us into this mess in the first place. >> both of you have talking points for either party. what is the biggest proposal you have congress or with local businesses to create jobs in our congressional district? >> the most important thing is how we are going to get stability and certainty with tax and regulatory policies. small community banks are suffering from the unintended consequences of the dodd-frank. florida is number one for foreclosures. st. lucie county is in the top two of the counties in florida. >> what is your solution for your district to create jobs -- not about policies that have failed or succeeded in the past.

what are you doing? >> congressman west is great at blaming people. i have created jobs. the first thing i would like to push forward is a piece of legislation that allows businesses to expensed 100% of their investment in the first year. this is something that came out of the jobs bill, and it incentivizes companies to invest. companies are sitting on cash and they are not investing in. we need to incentivize them to do that. >> how about repatriation? one of the things we have been talking about this $4 trillion of capital to come back here. 37 pieces of legislation i have voted on is sitting on harry

reid's desk. >> i am not there yet. >> let's move ahead to george. >> you mentioned you were a small businessmen. coastal construction group is one of the biggest general contractors in south florida. your father is the ceo. your family members are on the executive board. you are a vice president. how does that make you a small businessman? >> i went to work at deloitte % touche and i spent years going to numerous companies looking for inefficiencies. i rejoined the family business, and i started a small affiliate company, and that was because of the bp oil spill. oil was quite a comedown our

west coast. i was putting people to work in the gulf of mexico. that is a small business and is affiliated with a larger company. >> i am concerned about you continue to represent yourself as a cpa, but you are not certified or registered in florida, so you are misleading people. that is a big concern that i have. we have to be truthful with people. when it comes to small business, i have sat on a small business committee. every person that comes up there, we have to get them stability with our tax code. we're talking about a flat tax. we cannot -- if we raise taxes on those top two brackets, that will kill small business. it will affect 2.1 small

businesses in the united states. that is what i'm fighting to do. >> a rebuttal on this charge? >> i am a cpa, in colorado. i was endorsed -- i am an active member of the florida institute of cpa's. not only a member, but they have endorsed my candidacy. i am a cpa in colorado. i have never hidden that. >> congressman west, you campaigned against the stimulus package that barack obama has touted throughout his tenure. explain what your alternative method would be to creating jobs. >> creation of jobs means we go to the creators and give them

the right policies that enables them to grow. when you look at the $1 trillion we spent, unemployment was never supposed to go above 8%. it was above 8% for 43 straight months. when you look at projections of the stimulus, which are supposed to be around 5.8% unemployment. we are still two full percentage points lower than where the project said it would be. this is not about government spending more money. i would have rather seen that money be put into the pockets of small business owners, the people that can go out and create opportunities to get these storefronts opened up. >> a response?

>> repeat the question? >> you support or have said you support the stimulus package. outline why you are in support of that. >> we got to remember where we were when the stimulus was passed. the chairman of the fed said if we did not act quickly there would be no economy next week. i was not there when the stimulus was passed, but something had to be done. something had to be done to get our country back on track. that would have in turn brought down the rest of the world's economy. what needs to be done is focusing on building roads, bridges, and schools right here at home. we need to expand lending. we need to create an environment conducive to job growth, where we can lay out a tax policy that is predictable for all businesses.

here is what the regulatory environment is going to be, not to burdensome on small businesses. >> any follow-up? let's move on to the economy and flat taxes. we move on to economy, taxes, and the deficit, your math. speak to the constituents in your case in district 18 and talk about why when this country collects $2.50 trillion in revenue, why do we need more? why do we need to tax anybody more and speak about your stand on the expiration of the bush tax cuts? >> i do not support raising taxes on the middle class.

i am more conservative than those in the party. the bush tax cuts should be extended for those who make less than $1 million. i would draw a line at the million dollars. a lot of small businesses are s corporations. we need major tax reform. i have seen what companies do and individuals do, and there are way too many loopholes. the fact that shell and ge are paying basically 0% in taxes, that is not sustainable. >> what kind of impact would that have in terms of revenue? >> right now we have a

progressive tax code system. before we departed congress this fall, we passed legislation that said let's go to 25% and 10%. that is exactly what we need for small business owners. as you lower it those rates, you can reduce the amount of exemptions and deductions, and we want to get that revenue increased. they will reinvest their money and hire more people. you look at capital gains taxes, going up to 25%. that is a killer. dividend taxes going up to 44%. many seniors live off of those dividends. the death tax will go up to 55%, the minimum. we need to get rid of the death tax. we need to allow the repatriation of capital.

>> at what point do you say we need to have a mix between revenue cuts and tax increases? >> i am not going to go to the people and talk about raising taxes until we get our act together. $300 billion of programs that are duplicative in washington. it is insidious what we are doing. it is not just about fighting wars because that was borrowed money. you should not count that. we need to look at those agencies that are not functioning properly. we need to look at since the